If you are a member of Codeberg e.V. please take the time to participate in the poll that was just sent out about banning vibe-coded projects on Codeberg.

Please agree to the proposal. Slop can live on GitHub.

@tante haven't received it yet, it seems.

@tante SlopHub

@tante Time to become a member, I'd been meaning to anyway. Thanks.

@tante Done.

@hllizi @tante I just got mine. I guess their email sender is working through the list fairly slowly.

@tante how do you define vibecoded? Projects made completely with AI? Stuff which was created using AI as a tool?

@tante I guess the time is coming for me to become a member.

@bjoern @tante Yes

@bjoern mostly created using LLMs

@tante somebody buy slophub.com and redirect it to github

@tante I will vote in favor of it. I just wish the reasoning for banning such projects would go beyond an unclear copyright situation. there are so many more good reasons to not want such projects on a platform like Codeberg.

@tante But this can range from code completion to fully autonomous workflows.

How could it be enforced?

@xconde It's never about 100% enforcement. It's about telling slopsters to go away and to have leverage and reason to throw some code out

@tante fair point.

Sounds like the “no alcohol” signs you see in Australia public beaches. If you’re having a quiet drink or two, no one will say anything.

@xconde @tante

> Respect the boundary. When we say no, accept the no.

https://dotart.blog/cobbles/ai-and-that-guy-at-the-bar

@tante where??????

@tante

I dont know if its a good idea in the basis of bad actor makes ai pr and suddenly they have an excuse to kick you

@tante ah yea, SlopHub, not Slopberg, thank you!

@tante I could care less if people host their own vibe coded projects. I programmed for years, but who am I to judge if their project is actually useful for someone?

As long as there's no AI PR spam I'm find with it. In fact, I really mostly object to AI PR spam. Add a filter or something to let people act responsible around this.

Outright bans? nah. live and let live. If you vibe code, it's your own loss imho.

And yes, I pay for Codeberg, although non voting.

@tante
Not sure. I am afraid that the project might head into a dogmatic direction.

I would want Codeberg to be a place also for art projects and crazy side activities of people who are not experienced coders. I think, it can be fine to „vibe code“.

Maybe self-assess the handwritten vs. AI delivered code via a filterable icon? An approach simulate to the LICENSE as a middle ground?

@anokasion müsstest email bekommen

@tante

And how does one propose to tell if it's LLM-assisted code?

A code scanner? Like this Mary Shelly Frankenstein that's also 100% AI?

Good luck.

@bjoern @tante

So, no code autocomplete for you!
And no function correction for you!
And fuck, no IDE for you!

Hell, spellcheck was that scary AI that would ruin spelling foreverrrrrrrr. And guess what, it was also a whole big pile of horseshit.

LLMs will blow over.

@gabboman @tante the precise wording of the amendment is:

You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by “generative AI”-tools

so it would have to be quite a large PR or over a long period of time

I think a bigger concern would be if this would cause people to simply not label their slop in order to evade detection

@gabboman @tante wouldn't work like that

@tante it will be fun to read this in 10 years.

@tante thanks for the signal boost to our proposal <3 @Gusted

@tante What does "member" mean? I'm a Codeberg financial contirbutor (at a low level) but I didn't get an email

@mcc member of the association running Codeberg (member of Codeberg e.V.)

@xconde @tante It can't in an absolute sense and that's also not the point.

@tante what about typical makers which mainly c&p code from various sources without exactly knowing what the code does. Will they be banned too? @xconde

@crankylinuxuser @bjoern @tante "Hell, spellcheck was that scary AI that would ruin spelling foreverrrrrrrr. "

In other news, I can confidently confirm that German spelling in my students is FUBAR.

Sure, it is as anecdotal as your assertion, but whatever.

@noisytoot @tante thanks!

@tante I wish I could be a member to vote for this! I never heard back from several requests

@anemone @tante The point isn't perfect enforcement I would think. I would suppose, the point is to have a policy to point to when someone sends you a vibed PR, so that we don't need to relitigate it every time. You simply tap the sign. Plenty of rules exist for purposes like this.

While it may be "unenforceable" any reduction in the deluge is probably worth it, because right now it is a DDoS on many maintainers brains.

@anemone @tante I don't think that will be the case, but I could be wrong. No AI policies have been working okay on the servers represented in my fedi feed... They aren't perfect, but I almost never interact with the slop, and when I do, I can report it.

I think it is most likely to be a community pruning force. If someone does not feel welcome, because they want to fire around merde requests at the speed of slop, they probably won't end up on codeberg.

@tante Thanks for giving me AI tech bros to block. 👍

@davidonline @tante

And we can just choose to ignore the horrifying externalities, yes?

@xconde @tante

Opening your conversation with a group by saying "well I'll get to violate your group's values a _little_, right?" does not project the mentality of someone who wants to collaborate in good faith.

@thejessiekirk @tante Precisely what I appreciate most out of threads like this, too. Outing the blockables.

@dougie_jones @thejessiekirk @tante Good gosh yes!

@dascandy @tante

Somebody (it seems like a squatter, though) already had an idea to grab that domain:

Domain Name: SLOPHUB.COM
Updated Date: 2026-03-13T07:30:13Z
Creation Date: 2026-01-07T19:36:17Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2028-01-07T19:36:17Z
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC

@anemone @tante Ah yes. The Abrahamic disease. 60% effective is just as bad as 0% effective, so anything that isn't 100% effective needs to be dropped.

Laws against murder are unenforceable seeing as they keep happening (along with, you know, literally every crime in statute). We should just strike them from the books, shouldn't we? It's not 100% effective, so it's unenforceable.

@anemone @tante For some value of "reasoning", I guess.

@tante

banning vibe-coded projects on Codeberg

woop so is it just “vibe-coded” projects and “”responsible”” slop would still be allowed? thats, ugh, better than nothing, but ugh

@davidonline @tante

Not sure. I am afraid that the project might head into a dogmatic direction.

bwahahahahahaha are u gonna preach “no politics” now too. free software is inherently dogmatic, screw playing centrist

@tante I don't want to give people a reason to go to a µsoft service, where they are automatically pushed to use more AI. Having them on Codeberg where they see nice human coded projects and rules telling them to warn their code is vibecoded (possibly nudging them not to use vibecoding) wouldn't be the worst thing IMHO.

@tante And I wonder what happens if someone vibecodes project A (w/o declaring it), I fork it afterwards (not knowing it's vibecoded), edit like 10% of the code manually and afterwards get to know it has been vibecoded. The result will still be mainly vibecoded, but I invested my own time to improve it and now I am forced to go to another forge (I personally have some git forge at my university anyways, but some people would simply move to GitHub instead as it's the most prominent one)

@benedikt @tante It's always suspicious to me when someone sees a rule and immediately starts contriving edge cases that oppose that rule.

It makes me think they had no intention of following it in the first place and are showing how smart they are by hacking it.

@csolisr How are the rules in most (all?) F/OSS projects against the use of proprietary code enforced, and how strictly?

Same here.

@davidonline @tante F/OSS in general is already dogmatic. What do you think copyleft, for example, is? That's dogma.

@tante I propose a slightly stronger rule.

"Submitting content generated in large part by so-called generative AI will be construed as implicit consent for the hiring of thugs to hunt you down and thrash you to within inches of your life. Oh, and you'll be permanently banned as well."

@qqmrichter @tante I am sorry to hear that you've made this experience. I'm working at a university and I sadly have to deal with a lot of undeclared usage of LLMs and it's often difficult to find out whether this is the case for some project under investigation. I actually tried out some LLMs to get a better understanding what's possible, but it is still sometimes difficult for me to differentiate between vibecoding, careless copying from stackoverflow or having received help from a 3rd party.

@benedikt @tante "Explain your code to me without reference to third parties."

Done. The slop-mongers (and their earlier third-party-written brethren) will choke.

@tante What ever happened to the freedom to use software any way you want to? A still existing Debian ideal. When that was adopted the concern was for software used to do generic research, and the use of software could not be restricted from that. Now the mandarins of Codeberg, who are known for their malicious fork of Gitea, want to ban AI tools and blockchain research. Bleh.

@jeffmcneill @tante oh no! Anyway

@crankylinuxuser @tante It is amazing to me how loudly the slop slingers tell on themselves while very clearly thinking that they're being subtle.

@qqmrichter @tante

And many of you all are going in the techbro's direction of propagating fear and 2 minute hate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate

I see tremendously little here on mastodon of "teach how these LLMs work, their deficiencies, traps, and their successes". And teach how to effectively use these tools, rather than being used.

Playing chicken little publicly shows the management and C-level crowd that the techbros are correct , and all you are afraid for just cause.

Dr Fatima has the correct path here forward. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y85nqc2zm7M

@crankylinuxuser @tante Policies do not imply perfect compliance. If perfect detection and compliance were a requirement to write a policy we could not have any policies at all.

They are a statement of intent and community rules. When someone is found in violation, they provide the course of action to take.

@reflex @tante

The point being, I can't even get to the bottom of what an AI even is in order to make sense of the policies.

Are LLMs banned?
Speech to text banned?
Text to speech banned?
Implementing ML in programming?
Does SciKit-Learn qualify as a banned include?

What's the actual criteria here? Ive seen AI completely utterly change in what it's defined as dozens of times even just in my professional life.

What it appears to me is that statistical inference based programming is what scares people. And naturally, scared people flail out.

@crankylinuxuser @tante Weird how playing dumb means their policy is pointless. I am pretty certain you understand this is generative coding, ie: using Claude and the like.

Trying to blur the line by adopting the industry "lets go and relable existing, established technologies as AI to confuse everyone" only marks you as a shill for the industry, and not someone having an intellectually honest conversation wtih real questions.

@reflex @tante

Trying to blur the line by adopting the industry "lets go and relable existing, established technologies as AI to confuse everyone" only marks you as a shill for the industry, and not someone having an intellectually honest conversation wtih real questions.

Thats the problem. I think the same of the hardcore #mastodonHOA AI haters. I think they're also shills for the techbro corpo-LLM crowd, as the 'opposite side of the coin' telling people like chicken little that the sky is falling. And managers/C-levels eat that up as well and use the frightened masses also as social proof, that LLMs can indeed replace people. (Hint: they cant due to a variety of impossible-to-solve problems)

Ive been dabbling in AI and autogenerated works since 2005, way before it was vogue with the "Attention is All You Need" paper in 2017. I saw the writing on the wall with Word2Vec as a way to see Leibniz' dream of calculus with words. That was 2012 - beginning of tokenization.

And now, I see these grandiose claims that basically dont apply at all to us folks doing 100% local operations.

The only claim that holds water is "LLM data is trained from stolen knowledge"... I remember back in the old cyber days 'Information wanted to be free'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y85nqc2zm7M
This is a 1.5h long video. I highly believe that Dr Fatima's answer of education, not abstinence, is the correct way forward. If thousands can easily point towards LLM failures, then that gets seen for the probabilistic programming they are. And demystified things realllly lose their luster and ooh-shiny factor.

@crankylinuxuser @tante In other words, you are not being intellectually honest, got it.

@reflex @tante

Yeah, you'll see whatever you want. Upton Sinclair said it best:

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

And have fun being the social proof for the techbros with "No shit, LLM reallllly work! Look at those scared AI haters over there!"

@qqmrichter @crankylinuxuser @tante astounded by this slopist in this thread all "running away is the same as embracing it, therefore everyone should be made to use slop". straight up fascist thoughtlines right there

@davidonline @tante being dogmatic about refusing “AI” is a good thing

@ShadSterling @tante

I don’t think so.
In my opinion, it is too early too make this decision.

@csolisr it turns out to be super easy to detect LLM code, because the AI bros never STFU about it

@piggo https://circumstances.run/@davidgerard/116885691382230549

@piggo @tante I see such a rule as being similar to the "no Nazis" rule. It works by Nazi sympathizers self-identifying by arguing about the rule.

@jairajdevadiga @bjoern @tante perfect answer

@hsza @tante
And is this dogmatic approach helpful for the open source community or more harmful?

@davidonline @tante if this is a question youre asking i will politely request a severe fucking-off, if you think it preferable to hang with fascists this is not the place for you

@davidonline @tante no middle ground. There are plenty of other code forges out there. It's not like people would be left out in the cold otherwise.

@tante

Side note: I am a supporting member of Codeberg e.V.
I won't be able to vote, I guess.

@tante

One last note before ending this conversation. This doesn't feel healthy.

Listened to a German podcast the other day. And this quote stuck with me:

> [...] hab' den Eindruck, wir als Gesellschaft haben aufgehört Ambivalenzen auszuhalten. [...]"
- Marco Wanda

English: "[...] I have the impression that we as a society have stopped being able to tolerate ambivalence. [...]"

I'm still sitting with that one.

https://www.ardsounds.de/episode/urn:ard:episode:17bf45943d0877a3/

@gabboman @tante I don't think this is an actual threat. There are humans doing the moderation. They have brains and empathy.

@tante @claudius

Ive done moderation. Those words dont mean anything.

If they did fedi meta would not exist.

Its my opinion that it has potential to go wrong thats it

@hsza @tante
I asked a question. It was a question.

@davidonline The Slop already has a home at Git(Slop)hub. It's a place where copyright, ethics, and fascist technologies are welcomed with open arms.

@tante

@gabboman @tante

How would you prove a project is vibe coded? It’s easy to just delete a Claude.md/agents.md.

What happens to forks of vibecoded projects, or non-vibe coded projects which suddenly get an influx of ai generated code?

@gabboman @tante I extend a lot of trust to the people behind @Codeberg because in my opinion they've earned it.

Yes, things can go wrong. I'm even pretty sure things *will* go wrong. And then we talk about it and fix it again.

@xconde @tante Love this analogy.

Codeberg (unlike github) is simply taking the stance of 'no ai junk' as a principle.

This alone gives them license to be selective and firm up the rules as they go, makes their stance clear to the slopsters, and gives them license to ban for egregious quality or AI misuse.

Over time, and as everything else is ensloppified, Quality will become increasingly rare. It could even in increase the value of the stuff they host (or for training their own AI lol).

@piggo @tante Slop slingers are like vegans.

They'll tell you.

Just count the slop slingers in this very cluster of threads who've told on themselves in very loud voices.

@fedorato gives me Teitter / X vibes. @jairajdevadiga @tante

@davidonline
No, it would have been better to make that decision even earlier for several reasons.

The least of those being that it’s easier to reverse a ban when hypothetical future LLM systems are available without the ethical problems than to ban something that’s already entrenched through huge amounts of money, PR, and shady deals.

Compare with how long it took to ban leaded gasoline (still used in aviation) or asbestos in all kinds of products.

@ShadSterling @tante

@h4kor
Boom headshot 😃
@piggo @tante

@bjoern
You're coming off similar to someone trying to probe the limits of consent instead of trying to honor the request in good faith. It's a bad look.
@tante @xconde

@jeffmcneill They don't want to host that stuff (and pay for it). Which is totally legitimate. Microsoft takes all that code. Why does Codeberg need to accept it?

@tante This is a betrayal of open source principles that Codeberg claims to champion. The idea that you can do whatever you want isn't principled leadership, it is abuse of power.

@jeffmcneill @tante Oh shut the fuck up, you don't give a shit about principles or "freedom"
You can have your freedom to use and pump out slopware, and Codeberg and everyone else has the right to tell you to go fuck yourself and not want to have anything to do with you.

@tante IMHO this is nothing, Codeberg e.V. should even care for. If I want to put vibe-coded projects there, that’s my thing. Just walk by, there’s nothing to see.

Besides, it is almost impossible to enforce it, thus only will lead to fights whether something is vibe coded.

And finally, it’s the reality that these things happen. You may like it or hate it, but that doesn’t make AI-generated code go away. We have to accept it to a certain degree—in the end, no one is forcing you or me to use it

@stephan Codeberg e.V. is the association running the infrastructure and it's in that organization's right (and duty) to manifest the will of their members. And if the members don't want to host slop, that's their choice. People who want to vibe-code can go to literally _any_ other forge (like GitHub).

@tante I know, what Codeberg e.V. and I am also a member. Because I believe that the idea is great. If the majority of the members votes for this change, I will prepare the popcorn and watch the discussions whether something is vibe coded. To the best of my knowledge there exists no reliable way of detecting it. Thus, in dubio pro reo, that rule will be a toothless tiger a priori 🤷‍♂️

@stephan @tante There's no reliable way of detecting stolen proprietary code, should there be no rules against that?

@crankylinuxuser this is what you sound like, no judgement, just an observation: https://exquisite.social/@thomholwerda/116885247279532537

@fluffel

Strained terrible analogy is terrible.

Fine. Then tell me how abstinence teaching has worked for drugs, like DARE. That's right, it didnt.

Tell me how abstinence teaching has worked for sex and contraception? Thats right, it didnt.

So, now tell me how abstinence training will work THIS time for AI, and why all the previous times abstinence was taught will somehow work this time.

@crankylinuxuser I don’t know what DARE is, neither what your abstinence talking is all about (is that an American thing?). And like I said that’s not to judge anything you said or even telling you you’re wrong, just how you look to _me_ from the outside.

@fluffel

Yes, DARE was late 1980's and early 1990's "drug abuse resistance education". It was all about 'JUST SAY NO', and all the shaming and abstinence and such. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/07/12/a-brief-history-of-d-a-r-e-the-anti-drug-program-jeff-sessions-wants-to-revive/

Whatever country you're in, Im sure the Roman Catholic Church is there. They're one of the biggest pushers of sexual abstinence. And even the Archdiocee in Washington DC has came out and calling that program a failure. https://uscatholic.org/articles/202103/sex-ed-has-failed-catholics-heres-how-it-can-be-better/

Abstinence, shaming, and lying is how you hide the abuses, but they absolutely still happen, and more often. Thats the same for any of these topics, including AI. This is human psychology - tell people not to do it, and they'll go do it at night, in secret, and not know better how to protect themselves.

@crankylinuxuser I think I get your point in general, but still not why you are so agitated.

It’s not like the Codeberg e.V. members are prohibiting you from anything. All they are trying to do is a “not here” policy. Like you wouldn’t have sex in a public library, museum or anything, or at least try to hide it from anyone being there (bad metaphor but you get it). You can still go to GitHub, Gitlab, etc., where you are totally allowed and free to do all those AI things, nobody is stopping you.

@fluffel

The why.. sigh.

Creating "anti-AI policies" is how you actually get more AI. But now its illegal, and edgy, and dangerous. So instead of people admitting that they're using whatever tooling is 'illegal today', its driven underground.

Instead, if Codeberg changed to "Proper disclosure of AI in projects", then its no longer that illicit thing. Its a tag you set, per username. Have your agent push LLM derived code, and a human pushes human code. (And to think of it, that could also provide a neat study.)

But banning doesnt work, hides it, and makes it alluringly illicit. Its a failed strategy ive seen countless times and still people think it works.

@crankylinuxuser I don get the “it’s forbidden” part, it’s not! There are countless Git Services all over the internet where all of this can be done freely and openly.

Why is a little European Non-Profit Initiative a problem all of a sudden? Just don’t use it if you don’t like their policies (that maybe, depending on the votes, come sometime in the future).

@crankylinuxuser for me it’s like someone is saying “no shoes in our house!” and you are the one arguing that everybody should be allowed to wear shoes in other peoples houses

@tante Because freedom, wake up

@jeffmcneill Codeberg voluntarily runs infrastructure that it offers - for free - under certain terms. Defining those terms is an expression of the freedom of the members of Codeberg.

Codeberg is not a monopoly or a state actor, they don't have to include projects and people who don't follow the terms.

@tante When an organization claims to better represent a community and then begins to systematically restrict what that community is allowed to do, what do we call that but creeping authoritarianism. Your marketing is lies convering a cabal.

@jeffmcneill Codeberg is an association with members. Who vote on their rules. Codeberg explicity represents the stated will of their members, their community. Your statement doesn't make any sense.

@tante Then stop prattling on about being about freedoms and open source. You ain't.

@jeffmcneill @tante The freedom of association is a very core freedom as well, one that you are very happily trouncing with this attitude.

@jeffmcneill @tante average hachyderm user

@jeffmcneill @tante Tell that to the LLM companies who trained their chatbots on GPL’ed code that they can then reproduce sans attribution, in violation of the GPL. Slop code is itself a betrayal of open source principles.

As for Codeberg’s decision, where in any FOSS license does it say “everyone must host this software whether they like it or not”? If you set up a Forgejo instance on a server you own, it’s not a betrayal of open source if you don’t host anything any random person wants to put on it. It’s the old “you have the right to free speech but it doesn’t mean I have to buy you a megaphone” principle.

@cholling @tante Why would I set up a Forgejo instance? That is merely a malicious fork of Gitea. LLM training is fair use, look to the EFF for the voluminous discussions about the law. Slop is merely a perjorative and evidence of algorithm aversion.

@jeffmcneill @tante If you set up a Gitea instance on a server you own, it’s not a betrayal of open source if you don’t host anything any random person wants to put on it. It’s the old “you have the right to free speech but it doesn’t mean I have to buy you a megaphone” principle.

@jeffmcneill codeberg's software remains free and open source - they can choose not to host gen ai, but the license says they can't stop you setting up an instance that does.

The GPL protects your freedoms to run, modify, and share the source code, but it doesn't produce a requirement that services running it must allow you to use their specific instance for any specific thing.

I hope this helps understanding your GPL freedoms. Let me know if there's anything else.

(not a codeberg user)

@tante Question for critics, is this slop? https://codeberg.org/dma-dan/ZulipToSignal

Feel free to go hard, and if you see a real issue or oversight, just create an issue. I'll be real obvious to me since I get email notifications of changes and updates to my repos, and my slopbot and I are the only commiters, issue creators, and commenters on those repos.

What actually is "vibecoding"? Is it anything that involves an LLM, or is it only when someone has absolutely no idea what they're doing with an LLM?

Am I morally required to pay a human being to perform a service for me that I do not enjoy enacting myself in order to test my own ideas?

Maybe I need a reality check, but I'm having fun for the first time in a decade of fucking around with computers. I'm trying to maintain a notion responsibility in this complicated timeline, but it's hard for me to ignore the biological signal that "fun" is sending in a fun-desert.

This is more fun than Factorio to me, but I feel like I'm actually adding some real value to the real world (by providing my ideas implemented in cold, hard syntax), rather than wasting my own time playing a video game. I'd rather spend my time spawning solutions rather than using my own human inputs over time to compute a "cool gamesave".

I've never had fun with the rote implementation of my ideas, but it's definitely fun to see them come to life! I'd never subject a human being to be my little implementer boy (girl, or themby), because sometimes my ideas suck. I want to see that for myself before wasting both my own, AND someone else's time.

I'd like to do this more ethically, especially by not using cloud hosted LLMs; by hosting my own inference model at home. I'm actively trying to learn how to run my own self-hosted agentic coding models, and have had minor success with LMStudio. However, I am finding that the most effective workflow for myself resembles Github Copilot and Claude Code style IDE integrated chat based instruction.

I have the time, money, inspiration, and aspiration to do this, and to make the solution accessible to others by providing clear documentation. Aspiration is something that's been missing in my life for a long time, so I'm chasing it while I got it...

If anyone has any feedback for things I should look into to further this personal goal, please let me know!

@meph is most of the code written by an "agent"? Then it might soon no longer be welcome on Codeberg.

If I were to play "evaluator" I'd probably assume that it was mostly done through an agent given how little actual code there is and how much boilerplate and agent this and serious-development-cosplay there is. All these big development plan .md files for just a handfull of lines of python code feels not like what a human would do. So if I were to review this I'd ask you assuming it was mostly slop.

Good thing is: It's just a git repo. It could just move to GitHub or wherever.

@tante Yes. I understand that, and I think that sucks. I haven't read the actual proposal yet, but hopefully it has a bit of nuance within it. If I have to move to Github because of an ideological clash, I will unhappily do so (or most likely just run my own Forgejo instance). I'd rather use platforms that seem to care about people rather than whatever Github is doing.

Can you explain more what you mean by "development cosplay"? I understand that it doesn't "feel" like what a human would produce, and if you're not familiar with the LLM "workflow", I can understand that.

The inference model needs accurate source material in order to infer your intent properly. If you do not provide accurate source material, the actual code output will be complete garbage (slop?). Documentation of your design plans and workflow is critical to get the bot to "play along". How else is the bot supposed to know what you're trying to do? Telepathy?

This is a very similar approach to a "Documentation Driven Development". As my decades of experience in the industry clearly demonstrates to me, DDD is EXTREMELY popular with most software developers. /s

As I said in my post above, I'm more interested in design than implementation. Syntax is annoying to me, not a "fun little puzzle game". I'd rather see "results" than "toil" in "syntax land" about the "perfect" solution.

Sorry for all the scarequotes there, I'm just trying to make sure y'all understand that's some kind of "metaphor".

I've realized that a lot of developers just like playing with their "code puzzle books", and don't actually care about what they're implementing. That's a huge reason why I think devs often clash with other personality types in the "business world".

I'm not at all trying to disparage folks who primarily consider themselves devs, just attempting to share my general observations. This obviously isn't supposed to be a universal profile.

To be clear, I don't really consider myself to be a "dev" per-se, despite having a fairly decent understanding of the syntax of various languages (C and C++ strong, Python strong, weak in many others) and awareness of some common design patterns. I'm generally pretty terrible at algorithms, but can usually logic my way though problems at a higher level.

@meph @tante

Yeah, you're crossing in dangerous territory with these #mastodonHOA anti-ai-at-all-costs folks.

These people are doing the techbro's job for them, by making these grandiose "AI will take all jobs" and shit. Management also sees that signal and believes the techbros because the anti-ai is that scared.

The answer to all of this is education and AI literacy. "Lower Artificial Intelligence Literacy Predicts Greater AI Receptivity" is the paper and reason why.

https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/t9u8g_v1

Turns out illiterate folks (to AI) looks magical and always true. But to professional literate folks, its a real accelerating tool. But how dare you say that.

@crankylinuxuser yeah, too fucking bad they can eat my ass, and block me and my instance too.

feel free to read my gigantic ass follow up post to another reply if you're not just entirely locked into "AI bad, no exceptions" mode: https://social.treehouse.systems/@meph/116889865850090934

@crankylinuxuser maybe I'll actually read the paper later and provide real feedback, but not right now lmao

@crankylinuxuser anyways, if I'm being honest, a few months ago I was in the hater camp. I just recently (~3 months ago) decided to revisit the slop machines again and saw some of the models do actually useful things for me. I'm still trying to find the limits to the usefulness of Opus and the newer Anthropic models specifically.

This is not an ad. I fucking hate ads.

@meph

I didn't take this as an ad :) I took it as your workflow that works for you.

For me I tend to view this as furtherance of tech and calculus. There's good ways to use tools, and bad ones. I think literacy in how these things work is paramount.

However, I also look at it as a lens of 'who controls the means of production'? That was also Ned Ludd's thesis as well, not hating his current tech. The current crop of AI haters instead basically took Luddite propaganda and they internalized it.

That's why I push for local solutions, including LLMs when able.

@tante And for those who are interested, here's another project I'm working on that directly attempts to try and make LLM interactions with Forgejo more efficient, and less resource intensive for Forgejo instance operators, such as Codeberg.

Sorry, it's "vibecoded".

Link: https://codeberg.org/dma-dan/forj

Claude helped me figure out how to publish this to pip to reserve the name in the Python namespace forever in about an hour and a half. I didn't even have a PyPI account set up prior to that. I'm also on the verge of falling asleep :)

Good night chat.

Find me here: https://pypi.org/project/forj/

@tante this proposal and the discussion around it is a helpful, but difficult, nudge for me. Braat and Hacklily aren’t primarily made by generative models, but I would love advice from people who feel they have overshot on generative AI 🙂

@mathew @tante How does a rule help if you cannot prove it in case of doubt? There were rules against stealing in the first place. Did they help? Obviously not.

I am critical with the technology and especially the methodology these companies operate. However, I am also realistic in a way that it is what happens in practice. And, it’s not Codeberg’s duty to position itself, the code “authors” are liable for what they upload. Be it malware, copyright infringement, or something else.

@stephan @mathew @tante

By taking the arguments made here one step further:
- We shouldn't ask for licenses, because that's the author's business. (What are people volunteering for if not people and if not enabling positive contributions to the greater community, then?)
- If it's all a zero sum game; shoplifting should be made legal.

I understand that this won't change your mind, but repositories hosted on Codeberg are not "clear-cut cases" on whether they should be allowed or not already.

@stephan @mathew @tante Some see it that it is Codeberg's duty to take a stance based on its Bylaws. Some don't. And that's why there is a vote. I'd say "just vote no, then".

@n0toose @mathew @tante Nice proposals, and in an ideal world they might even work. Besides, I agree, many cases are not clear-cut. Neither at Codeberg nor in many other situations in life.

I also understand that some see it as Codeberg's duty. The nice thing about a democratic process is that we do not need to agree on everything. From my perspective, the most important is that, no matter what the result on this vote will be, we can continue to strive for the best for Codeberg.

@stephan @mathew @tante I see what you mean, but point I was trying to make is that "you can't catch everyone but the second-order effect is that it's meant to deter by creating uncertainty"; the interests of shop owners and Codeberg's volunteers do differ, of course.

And even if it doesn't work as it should (e.g. too much load on moderators), then one can take a "mea culpa" approach and adjust later as well. I also do think that about the proposals I've submitted on my own.

@stephan @tante Sounds like talking points straight from a "let's not tax billionaires" slide deck.

@soc @tante If I could only find a relation between the previous discussion and your comment, but I am not successful for quite a while now. Although, I kind of expected something like this. If you are not 110% against AI, then you obviously do not want to tax billionaires... This is, what makes me tired of discussions with strangers on the internet, which used to be encouraging. Until some troll came by with a pointless comment—please grab your fish somewhere else.

@tante can non members view the proposal? I'd love to read it

@maddyunderstars https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253/files

@tante @jeffmcneill freedom is when I can take a dump in any house in town, and tyranny is when the HOA says I have to get permission from homeowners before barging in with my pants off. I am a very smart libertarian with well-researched ideas about freedoms and social contracts. My right to wave a gun around stops never, because I have unlimited rights. All noses will be shredded under my terrifying reign of freedom, nobody else exists except me.

@ainmosni @tante How am I trouncing on the freedom of association? I am not declaring any association illegal, or excluding others, unlike you.

@jeffmcneill @tante This is starting to feel like you’re arguing in bad faith, as the freedom of association also means people can choose who they don’t associate with. For instance, they can choose not to associate with vibe coders.

@jeffmcneill "Power"? In comparison to whom? _Maybe_ if Github pulled that. But Codeberg? Do "Open Source Principles" mean that an infrastructure provider needs to host _anything_ regardless of their values?
The proposal argues from a standpoint of a) unclear legal situation and b) lack of quality control/degration of security. That is a reasonable argument to be made.

Also: Codeberg has always not allowed certain content. Look through the ToS (https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/src/branch/main/TermsOfUse.md) no hate speech, no Nazi shit, etc. Does your interpretation of "Open Source Principles" mean that Codeberg has to throw those rules out as well?

@fgaz no idea.

@stephan

nah get outta here with that

@tante

@csolisr Here's some code:

void co_init_impl(stack_t **stack_pointer, stack_t **stack_canary, co_function co_cb,
stack_t *stack_buffer, size_t stack_buffer_count)
{
// check that stack is aligned
assert((uintptr_t)stack_buffer % 4 == 0);

// setup stack
SET_STACK_VAL(1, (uintptr_t)co_prologue_impl); // return to platform prologue

/* ... rest elided for space ... */
}

Is this under copyright protection? If so is it **MY** copyright?

Explain your answer.

@csolisr My theory is that people who play this "but how do you enforce it?" game are people who plan to ignore the rule themselves.

Persuade me otherwise. (Hint: this is not possible.)

Funny to read some of the replies from closeted vibe coders here.

"So hard to enforce!"
"Let's not be dogmatic!!"
"But what *is* vibe coding, actually?!?!"

🤭

@tante

@meph @tante unironic agents.md → definitely slop

@cinebox @tante good post; much wisdom!

@jeffmcneill @tante

Hm. Realized I was writing a detailed reply and read more of your comments. Shorter version: you're either arguing in bad faith or you're stupid. Either way, I'm just gonna go ahead and mute you and you can block me at your leisure as you seem to be doing to others.

@arabine @tante Post AI bubble pop a lot of this dialog is going to be fun to read in a decade. Just like reading articles about NFTs a few years back are amusing now.

@reflex @tante NFT is useless from day one, Ai gen can create things. It is a good opportunity for open source to deliver good software and tools that can compete with propreitary software.