tante
tante@tldr.nettime.org
If you are a member of Codeberg e.V. please take the time to participate in the poll that was just sent out about banning vibe-coded projects on Codeberg.
Please agree to the proposal. Slop can live on GitHub.
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@tante haven't received it yet, it seems.
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@tante Time to become a member, I'd been meaning to anyway. Thanks.
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@tante how do you define vibecoded? Projects made completely with AI? Stuff which was created using AI as a tool?
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Jean-Baptiste "JBQ" Quéru
jbqueru@floss.social@tante I guess the time is coming for me to become a member.
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Jairaj Devadiga
jairajdevadiga@mastodon.social
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@bjoern mostly created using LLMs
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Peter Bindels
dascandy@infosec.exchange@tante somebody buy slophub.com and redirect it to github
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@tante I will vote in favor of it. I just wish the reasoning for banning such projects would go beyond an unclear copyright situation. there are so many more good reasons to not want such projects on a platform like Codeberg.
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@tante But this can range from code completion to fully autonomous workflows.
How could it be enforced?
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@xconde It's never about 100% enforcement. It's about telling slopsters to go away and to have leverage and reason to throw some code out
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@tante fair point.
Sounds like the “no alcohol” signs you see in Australia public beaches. If you’re having a quiet drink or two, no one will say anything.
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> Respect the boundary. When we say no, accept the no.
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I dont know if its a good idea in the basis of bad actor makes ai pr and suddenly they have an excuse to kick you
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지지 ᚠד (Jiji Freya Daniel), 黄法官
CyReVolt@mastodon.social@tante ah yea, SlopHub, not Slopberg, thank you!
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@tante I could care less if people host their own vibe coded projects. I programmed for years, but who am I to judge if their project is actually useful for someone?
As long as there's no AI PR spam I'm find with it. In fact, I really mostly object to AI PR spam. Add a filter or something to let people act responsible around this.
Outright bans? nah. live and let live. If you vibe code, it's your own loss imho.
And yes, I pay for Codeberg, although non voting.
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@tante
Not sure. I am afraid that the project might head into a dogmatic direction.
I would want Codeberg to be a place also for art projects and crazy side activities of people who are not experienced coders. I think, it can be fine to „vibe code“.
Maybe self-assess the handwritten vs. AI delivered code via a filterable icon? An approach simulate to the LICENSE as a middle ground?
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@anokasion müsstest email bekommen
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Yet another Josh 
crankylinuxuser@infosec.exchange
And how does one propose to tell if it's LLM-assisted code?
A code scanner? Like this Mary Shelly Frankenstein that's also 100% AI?
Good luck.
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Noisytoot
noisytoot@gabboman @tante the precise wording of the amendment is:
You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by “generative AI”-tools
so it would have to be quite a large PR or over a long period of time
I think a bigger concern would be if this would cause people to simply not label their slop in order to evade detection
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Noisytoot
noisytoot
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normy foxyoreos
foxyoreos@mastodon.socialShow content
@crankylinuxuser @tante this gets brought up a lot, but my perspective is:
A) a lot of AI projects are proud of it and will disclose it somewhere.
B) the collaborative nature of Open Source makes it difficult for larger projects to hide process details indefinitely.
C) if the outcome of this is that projects using AI hide their usage and don't evangelize it, that is a significant win that we should take.
AI "detection" is unnecessary for a rule like this.
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normy foxyoreos
foxyoreos@mastodon.socialShow content
@crankylinuxuser @tante programmers are some of the biggest AI evangelists right now, and if a bunch of them start hiding their usage, that is a serious blow to companies like Microsoft and Anthropic who are counting on them to help drive a narrative about demand.
We take those wins; those are real wins. I want people using AI to hide their usage rather than to be public about it, I want it to be something that's culturally shameful to admit.
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@tante it will be fun to read this in 10 years.
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Yet another Josh
crankylinuxuser@infosec.exchange
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Are you shameful of spellcheck?
How about Markov chains and spam detection?
Are IDEs "AI"? Like function completion, or auto completing templating?
Or if its about training and recitation, are you against PID control loops? 3 neurons.
Or STT/TTS assistive technologies offensive to those disabled people?
Or is this how much data is in the statistical array? Is 1B OK, but 35B bad?
Cause this nebulous term " AI" doesn't actually mean anything. Has no scientific definition, and has changed hundreds of times even in my professional life.
Just how far up the statistical computing ladder do we go before its "evil"?
And LLMs are just tools. I am a tool user. Just so happens that I run my own #LocalLLM .
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normy foxyoreos
foxyoreos@mastodon.socialShow content
@crankylinuxuser @tante See, it's exactly like I said: detection isn't a problem because LLM users will tell you :3
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Yet another Josh
crankylinuxuser@infosec.exchange
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No, I'm asking on the spectrum of statistical programming where is 'evil'? How many neurons? What kind of training functions? How much training data?
My 8bit Marlin 3d printer runs 'AI'. Sure, its when I run a PID training and then using to calibrate the hotend and bed, but it absolutely is learning software and AI.
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Bastian Greshake Tzovaras
gedankenstuecke@scholar.social
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@tante What does "member" mean? I'm a Codeberg financial contirbutor (at a low level) but I didn't get an email
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Noisytoot
noisytoot
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@mcc member of the association running Codeberg (member of Codeberg e.V.)
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Fabian Transchel
ftranschel@norden.social
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Fabian Transchel
ftranschel@norden.socialShow content
@crankylinuxuser @foxyoreos @tante Once upon a time before the interwebs, there was a thing called common sense. I guess it ain't no more.
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Yet another Josh
crankylinuxuser@infosec.exchange
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I've been in industry for almost 30 years.
What timeframe of AI should I be angry at?
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normy foxyoreos
foxyoreos@mastodon.socialShow content
@crankylinuxuser @tante Right, and what I'm saying is that when a project author shows up demanding ontological proof that AI is evil and for you to rigorously define the exact syntactic line between modern LLMs and other forms of AI - that's your detection. You don't need to run an AI detection service on the code.
You wait for the project author to completely voluntarily, unprompted (pun intended) volunteer that they use specifically LLMs, and then you ban those projects.
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normy foxyoreos
foxyoreos@mastodon.socialShow content
> And how does one propose to tell if it's LLM-assisted code?
You post that it's good to hide LLM usage and that people should be embarrassed about using them, and then your LLM-using projects will tell you that they're using LLMs during the resulting argument.
It's a surprisingly reliable detection method.
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@crankylinuxuser @foxyoreos @tante Yeah, AI means anything these days.
However, I'm tired of hearing this "LLMs are just tools" rhetoric.
Acting like they're just "tools" that are harmful "only" because of their users is reductive and excludes all the genuine legal, environmental and ethical concerns regarding LLMs.
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@davidonline @tante i don't think artists and similar should be exempt from the "vibe-code" rule.
What they're doing will still end up as harmful as any other vibe-coded project, they're not different from everyone else.
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Carlos Solís
csolisr@hub.azkware.net
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@davidonline @tante At worst, that's a very bad way to make software, even if one might be unexperienced and wish to get help in one way or another.
Have we forgotten about the old ways of learning how to code?
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Fabian Transchel
ftranschel@norden.social@crankylinuxuser @bjoern @tante "Hell, spellcheck was that scary AI that would ruin spelling foreverrrrrrrr. "
In other news, I can confidently confirm that German spelling in my students is FUBAR.
Sure, it is as anecdotal as your assertion, but whatever.
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Yet another Josh
crankylinuxuser@infosec.exchange
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@stilic @foxyoreos@mastodon.social @tante
If you run your own using open weights, most of those problems go away. I use my own equipment, in my own house. And yeah, backed by solar and battery. I don't trust the cloud vendors.
And the copyright violation (maybe) aspect doesn't go away. But frankly, I DGAF about copyright. Its way too long, and ends up still abusing artists. And my purpose is 0-profit. I use it for me. I don't sell it. I dont rent it.
And given theres 5 movie studios, 4 record companies, 3 publishing companies, 2 app companies.. they profit, and the artists and creators get soaked. So basically I hurt the companies. Excuse me while I play a sonata 😹
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@crankylinuxuser @tante The problems won't get away like that, the so-called "open weights" models are still usually trained the same way as commercial ones
Also you can't just "ignore" legal problems like that and say you don't care about it.
You won't magically be given a free pass because you think your opinion takes precedence over everything else.
Your "purpose" and your mindset changes *nothing* about your legal obligations.
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2something@transfem.social
2something@transfem.socialShow content
@crankylinuxuser @tante @stilic
And there we have it. You have answered your own query about how a no-LLM policy can be enforced: the people who use LLMs, like you, eventually brag about their usage.
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@tante I wish I could be a member to vote for this! I never heard back from several requests
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@anemone @tante The point isn't perfect enforcement I would think. I would suppose, the point is to have a policy to point to when someone sends you a vibed PR, so that we don't need to relitigate it every time. You simply tap the sign. Plenty of rules exist for purposes like this.
While it may be "unenforceable" any reduction in the deluge is probably worth it, because right now it is a DDoS on many maintainers brains.
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@anemone @tante I don't think that will be the case, but I could be wrong. No AI policies have been working okay on the servers represented in my fedi feed... They aren't perfect, but I almost never interact with the slop, and when I do, I can report it.
I think it is most likely to be a community pruning force. If someone does not feel welcome, because they want to fire around merde requests at the speed of slop, they probably won't end up on codeberg.
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potentially hazardous object
ophis@brain.worm.pinkShow content
- how long did they have
- could a person have typed that all out by hand in that time
- why is this huge amount of detail/complex code here
- what kind of a person would spend all that extra effort doing that background detail (or code or prose equivalent)
- is this person that kind of person
- does that extra detail serve some other purpose, or is it a vestige of some previous version, or is it an easter egg, etc.
- does this seem to have been done with some implicit understanding of the project's overall structure OR intended purpose as a whole
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🌸 lumi-nhac 
🌱
lumi@snug.moe
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@anemone @tante many policies are not straightforward to enforce and moderation is full of these edge cases. genai is not a new thing here
there should be standards, like stating that genai is not accepted
sure, someone can sneak it in, but when there is proof, they get kicked out (maybe with a system of warnings?)
if they already can’t be proud of using this dehumanizing and unethical technology, i feel that’s great. it also means they can’t be promoting this fashtech
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potentially hazardous object
ophis@brain.worm.pinkShow content
spellcheck is shampoo and harmful to compression
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@foxyoreos @crankylinuxuser @tante yes, exactly. it should be shameful to admit
this doesn’t mean we should be shaming them, though. the shame should be coming from themselves
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🌸 lumi-nhac 🌱
lumi@snug.moe
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@crankylinuxuser @foxyoreos @tante oh come on, you know exactly what we’re talking about. don’t give me this shit
with “ai” what is referred to is generative models
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potentially hazardous object
ophis@brain.worm.pinkShow content
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Polybius Monk
pikesley@mastodon.me.ukAnd we can just choose to ignore the horrifying externalities, yes?
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Sylvie :lego_blush:
sylvie@gabriel.havfruefestning.comShow content
@crankylinuxuser @foxyoreos @tante It has parallels in communities that have a rule that says “No Nazis permitted entry” where the ones vocally upset at the rule are most likely to be white supremacists
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Blurry Moon
sun@shitposter.world
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potentially hazardous object
ophis@brain.worm.pink
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The Witch of Crow Briar
crowbriarhexe@tech.lgbtShow content
@foxyoreos @crankylinuxuser @tante …and tell you, and tell you, and tell you, and tell you, and… 🤦🏼♀️
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"Dougie Jones"
dougie_jones@4d2.social@thejessiekirk @tante Precisely what I appreciate most out of threads like this, too. Outing the blockables.
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Cat 🐈🥗 (D.Burch) 
catsalad@infosec.exchange
@dougie_jones @thejessiekirk @tante Good gosh yes!
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Furbland's Very Family-Friendly Account™
GroupNebula563@mastodon.socialShow content
@crankylinuxuser @ftranschel @foxyoreos @tante how's about the generative variety
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🇨🇦🇩🇪🇨🇳张殿李🇨🇳🇩🇪🇨🇦
ZDL@mstdn.social@anemone @tante Ah yes. The Abrahamic disease. 60% effective is just as bad as 0% effective, so anything that isn't 100% effective needs to be dropped.
Laws against murder are unenforceable seeing as they keep happening (along with, you know, literally every crime in statute). We should just strike them from the books, shouldn't we? It's not 100% effective, so it's unenforceable.
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🇨🇦🇩🇪🇨🇳张殿李🇨🇳🇩🇪🇨🇦
ZDL@mstdn.social
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wrathful zivirkari
hsza@social.tudbut.debanning vibe-coded projects on Codeberg
woop so is it just “vibe-coded” projects and “”responsible”” slop would still be allowed? thats, ugh, better than nothing, but ugh
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wrathful zivirkari
hsza@social.tudbut.deNot sure. I am afraid that the project might head into a dogmatic direction.
bwahahahahahaha are u gonna preach “no politics” now too. free software is inherently dogmatic, screw playing centrist
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Benedikt Wi
benedikt@ruhr.social@tante I don't want to give people a reason to go to a µsoft service, where they are automatically pushed to use more AI. Having them on Codeberg where they see nice human coded projects and rules telling them to warn their code is vibecoded (possibly nudging them not to use vibecoding) wouldn't be the worst thing IMHO.
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Benedikt Wi
benedikt@ruhr.social@tante And I wonder what happens if someone vibecodes project A (w/o declaring it), I fork it afterwards (not knowing it's vibecoded), edit like 10% of the code manually and afterwards get to know it has been vibecoded. The result will still be mainly vibecoded, but I invested my own time to improve it and now I am forced to go to another forge (I personally have some git forge at my university anyways, but some people would simply move to GitHub instead as it's the most prominent one)
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Michael T. Richter
qqmrichter@mastodon.world@csolisr How are the rules in most (all?) F/OSS projects against the use of proprietary code enforced, and how strictly?
Same here.
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Michael T. Richter
qqmrichter@mastodon.world@davidonline @tante F/OSS in general is already dogmatic. What do you think copyleft, for example, is? That's dogma.
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Michael T. Richter
qqmrichter@mastodon.world@tante I propose a slightly stronger rule.
"Submitting content generated in large part by so-called generative AI will be construed as implicit consent for the hiring of thugs to hunt you down and thrash you to within inches of your life. Oh, and you'll be permanently banned as well."
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Benedikt Wi
benedikt@ruhr.social@qqmrichter @tante I am sorry to hear that you've made this experience. I'm working at a university and I sadly have to deal with a lot of undeclared usage of LLMs and it's often difficult to find out whether this is the case for some project under investigation. I actually tried out some LLMs to get a better understanding what's possible, but it is still sometimes difficult for me to differentiate between vibecoding, careless copying from stackoverflow or having received help from a 3rd party.
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