The problem with saying "Linux doesn't work" is that it's incorrect.

Folks are always surprised to hear that I've been doing music, videos, and gaming on Linux for decades.

Biggest thing is that I *only* buy hardware that works on Linux, and I *only* use software that works on Linux.

What you mean when you say "Linux doesn't work" is that "Linux doesn't work for me." But that's not rage-baity enough to attract attention.

A problem I have with every "I tried Linux for two weeks and could never make it work" thing is that folks position themselves as the default, everyday computer user.

But they're not! Jeeze folks! They're already knee deep in Windows/Mac software if they have a YouTube channel where they make videos on Windows/Mac!

These folks have production workflows that they don't want to change. If that's not you, you can disregard their rage-bait!

@vkc yeah, people will "try Linux" on whatever piece of garbage old machine they have laying about and then complain that the hardware isn't as well supported as a MacBook with macOS...

I've also used Linux exclusively for everything I do for decades, I totally agree with you.

You really don't need Windows/macOS for daily life if you just choose not to use it.

@hp @vkc Linux is usually very happy with a "piece of garbage old machine", usually everything will just work out the box.

A more common situation is that a brand new laptop has architectural changes that only windows knew about and supported before release, this is things like how the audio is integrated to the motherboard, multi-microphone, WLAN card, special webcam. Linux will work OK for 90% but you might have to wait for the last 10%. That's why trying a USB ISO is good before install.

@hopeless @vkc I'm more talking about things like Nvidia GPUs and Broadcom wifi adapters.

People trying to install Linux on machines with parts actively hostile towards open source drivers.

I don't "make Linux and FOSS work for me." Years ago, I *chose* to work with Linux and FOSS.

I just switched, and if things required Windows or a Mac, I didn't do those things. I did other things instead.

My priorities welcomed that choice. Yours might not. That's OK! But it doesn't mean Linux can't do it.

It'd be like saying "my bicycle can't haul a tractor, therefore bicycles are worthless." You'd sound absurd. That's what they do. Because rage sells.

@hp @vkc Right, AMD Radeon has proper upstream kernel support that is very turnkey. Some broadcom stuff has FOSS drivers but there are so many forks at broadcom, sometimes it's a source of problems, it depends entirely on the exact card (newer < older).

Earlier this year I needed to install the nvidia proprietary pieces, I found it wasn't that painful via AKMS, I could get cuda going with a small struggle. But it does have the ick compared to how nice AMD's built-in kernel support goes.

@hopeless @vkc it's more that even if you get it to work initially, there are a lot of opportunities for the gui breaking entirely after an update or something.

You need to be an expert to recover from a nvidia driver fuck up. And because that WILL happen you have to be an expert to use a machine with an Nvidia GPU in it.

The fact that you even know what akms is already means you're in the top percentage of computer users. Knowledge-wise.

@vkc Six reasons Linux doesn't work:

William Shatner couldn't find me on Linux.
This is a problem.

@hp @vkc I don't disagree that the proprietary stuff can make trouble. But eg rpmfusion (non-FOSS packages for Fedora type distros) has packaged the prorietary blob and aligned versioning at the package level for years now, they have made it easier for normal humans and I think the situation is similar at Ubuntu (I don't use it).

There's supposed to be new FOSS drivers coming with nvidia's participation I heard a while back. So maybe it will eventually all be like the AMD experience.

@hopeless @vkc I'm just saying, they are little mines/time bombs hidden in unsuspecting Linux user's computers.

And when it breaks they give Linux a bad name. And they always, eventually, break.

@hp @vkc ... whereas windows... is the same, right? Just for different reasons + viruses...

I would guess most Linux installs don't have any proprietary software, considering most gpus by volume will be intel ones (fully supported by the kernel). If you keep it like that and use a first-level distro actually you can expect it to be extremely robust ongoing.

@hopeless @vkc absolutely!

@vkc You're absolutely right. When I was kinda advocated linux to my collegues in late 90's it was always like that - "How can I run Photoshop on your Linux? How can I run WinAmp on this?" though the questions actually were "how can I edit graphics" and "how can I listen to my music".

Since then everything became even more easy for an end-user, sometimes I miss good old days where you have to understand your system better than just "install it and use it". Low entry barrier is not good somtimes

@vkc I will say, despite using Linux myself for many years and doing all my computing with it, that it isn't perfect either.

Let's not disregard blind folks who are sometimes unable to run Linux, because e.g. Orca doesn't work well for some particular thing, or maybe sound doesn't work, or even perhaps the distro doesn't even have any accessibility features built-in. It's a reality, and we should not forget these people.

You may be able to do everything you want on Linux, and that's great. I also do everything on Linux, and my entire desktop on Linux just works great and makes me able to get through my day efficiently. But that doesn't mean it works for everyone else.

What can be done however, and is being done (though you can help too!), is *improving* this ecosystem so it works better for people who genuinely otherwise cannot get through their day with Linux. Make it more reliable, improve support for more hardware, work on drivers, but also work on accessibility features, get desktops blind-friendly, and even contribute to the software you already use, etc. so that the landscape improves more and more as time passes.

@vkc

More like my compact car can't hall a refrigerator.

I find I can do most things I need on Linux. The commercial things are such a hassle with their surveillance and their evil terms of service.

@Rozzychan lol, I find I can do most things I need on a bicycle (but I get your point) :)

Folks are in my comments trying to rage bait in response to my critique of (checks notes) rage bait.

Folks: don't buy it

@vkc

It's turtles, errr... rage bait, all the way down

@vkc I know you're not specifically talking about people who genuinely are sometimes unable to use linux in its current state because e.g. not accessible enough, but it is something we shouldn't forget.

@vkc

Over my past 30 years of using Linux, my attitude toward devices and software not working on Linux was not “Linux doesn't work.” It was “this device/software doesn't work.”

As time went on, the set of devices and software that didn't work has gradually diminished. This past year has been especially vindicating.

Expect better from the things you use. Sometimes, you'll get your wish.

@vkc Same for me, in fact: Windows/Mac doesn't work for me

- Windows/Mac doesn't run on my hardware
- Mac support for containers sucks
- Mac gaming isn't great
- Windows/Mac UI is weird and constantly changing
- Windows/Mac software updates are all over the place
- Most devices and services are running on Linux already, why use some niche product?
…

@vkc "checking before you buy for linux support" is a massive invisible gap - I've been doing it since Radeon had open source support and NVidia didn't*, and my experience of Linux is pretty solid "it just works" , but I can see how other people could have the opposite experience

* I'm not old, I'm vintage

@djm62 @vkc I find it's less of an issue than it used to be, but it's definitely still a consideration.

@vkc Gaming was always the great barrier that kept me from switching to Linux. The absolute miracle that the Proton developers have done has let me daily drive Ubuntu Linux for years now!

@TarXZ @vkc I know a blind person who actually enjoys espeak so much it is also configured on the iphone it uses

and I can see why you'd prefer espeak over some AI speech thing.

TTS is not an issue on linux.

@TarXZ @vkc what? (I can't understand your sentence)

@vkc YES YES YES THIS THANK YOU

@TarXZ @vkc I've heard from a blind person that having a robotic voice helps better understand what is said than having a 'natural' voice. espeak also manages better speeds than other TTSes (while still being intelligible, because the voice is so robotic)

@vkc People who ask how I play video games on Linux. Easy, I just don't give my money to companies who actively prevent their games from working on Linux.

@fun @vkc

Not quite.

There is extensive Linux accessibility support, but like all things software the dominant support networks are bought and paid for by corporates.

Learning to use Linux accessibility tools is the same as learning other Linux tools, a steep learning curve and much FUD to discourage you

I interect often with a musicians using Linux who I know does not use a monitor and has a brail interface. So draw your own conclusions

@tacnextgen @vkc Linux gaming has been solid for 20+ years now, but it was entirely its own thing with only some overlap with other platforms (barring emulation that takes considerable skill to set up)

Proton makes it 95% overlapping with Windows, which means you get most Windows games and *all* Linux games

That's a pretty solid deal IMHO

@vkc I love this thread -- it was exactly my response to the "use Linux for a month" videos last year that mostly focused on how they couldn't play games on enterprise desktop distros.

Ironically, this video of some madman pulling a tractor with a bike was in my recommends this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hDQXP3xSj4

@katachora I just wanted to mention Seths video but thank you for already doing that.
The good old "${ABC} can't do ${JKL}" and a person just asking "you sure about that? Let me prove you wrong."
@vkc

@vkc This is why I'm surprised at all the "arch breaks things" posts...I keep forgetting that I specifically got laptops *designed* for Linux. They've been rock solid for years, but it does require the privilege (or generosity; my last two laptops were gifts) to be able to choose that.

@socketwench Unfortunately, where I live, that doesn't really exist apart from System76. So I'm pretty much stuck with that and broken speakers.

HP and Dell both have 'designed for Linux' lines. Lenovo devices are mostly compatible. Almost any server is supported by the various enterprise Linux OSes of their day. There are also always the smaller shops S76, Clevo, Framework, Purism, etc but those are all niche. I haven't seen second tier brands (Acer, Asus, Toshiba, et ) have Linux lines but I haven't looked that hard. (Sorry for the necro)

@vkc ehhhhhh I would say Linux doesn't work for accessibility. I've really tried, and I'm considering another run at it, but for accommodating a lot of disabilities, Linux often doesn't work.

@quinn @vkc My accessibility needs modest (I mostly need to be able to ensure I get black text on white background everywhere, and proper text scaling).

It could be better, but it's no worse than the competition.

My understanding is that the big issue is screen reader technology? I tried to use a screen reader once, in order to learn how people who need it would use it, in order to be able to test my own software, but I failed.

I don't know if I failed because I did it wrong, or it's because the systems are broken.

Do you know of a writeup somewhere on the current state of things, and where the gaps are?

@loke @quinn @vkc alright, I can help somewhat, considering I'm a fully blind user using linux on a daily basis:

I wrote extensively on this before, but that's mostly in reply to other threads, so I don't have a link at hand. However, here are some quick tips:

• the component you'll need is called orca
• gnome and kde now have better accessibility support on wayland too, with the keyboard capture thing they implemented
• while in browse mode, you use the navigation keys for exploring web pages, such as h for headings, l for lists, etc etc
• in focus mode, you use the app as usual for the most part
• you toggle between the two with orca+a
• orca has a manual with keyboard shortcuts and stuff, accessed with orca/insert+h, then f1, or on the web, or as a manpage for some distros
• to make sure your apps are accessible, it depends on the toolkit you use, but check their docks on it, and make sure you label your stuff properly, that's the most important advice

Hope that helped, somewhat! and if you have any more questions, feel free to keep posting in here

@esoteric_programmer @loke @vkc wow Thank you so much! I might hit you up with questions here if that works. I am sighted but I have some spinal damage that complicates reading and arm/hand/neck use.

@quinn @loke @vkc sure, no problem! I know this stuff is kinda esoteric and weird, so I usually jump in such threads with an explanation if I somehow end up stumbling across them. But yeah, anything you want to know in particular?
I'm not sure what accessibility tools work well for your disability, however if you need a screenreader or voice control software, I have some experience in those, but especially the orca screenreader for obvious reasons :p. For anything else, especially if you know the solution on other platforms, I can ask people to see if we have something comparable on this side of things

@esoteric_programmer @quinn @vkc a long time ago, I was working for a company that did (among other things) Unix training. Once they had course where one of the participants was blind. He was using a braille termnal and seeing him use it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

Are these still a thing? It seems like most people use screeenreaders these days?

@loke @quinn @vkc yes it is, but braille displays are generally prohibitively expensive for most of us, add onto that the fact that tts is generally faster, it's not worth saving up for it for most of us. If you're a heavy book reader and you don't want to have the screenreader speak into your ears all the time, that might be a good option, but since I don't care about that aspect because I like to hear my tts read books, it's not needed over here.

@vkc Likewise, I have tried Windows for a long time (I use it at work), and I can honestly say that Windows's doesn't work (for me).

I could possibly make Windows work, but that would be a hassle, and there are no upsides.

@vkc Would love to see some tutorials for my 11 year old on LMMS.... 🤞#xmaswish

@dalstroka @vkc i was 10ish when i started making electronic music (on windows). i personally found flstudio to be perfect for me at 11. very intuitive to use and also professional instead of holding my hand too much. it is not linux native but runs well in bottles. flstudio is not open source.
LMMS however i could never get working right. i felt limited by its interface and many repetitive tasks that kill creativity aren't automated like they are in flstudio. that's my side of it

@vkc Something I often hear is "why do I have to adapt to Linux and they don't change it to be like Windows". I mean distro-discourse aside it seems a bit rude that Windows users often expect Linux users (we may be few in percentage but not so much in headcount I think) to see their OS/tools significantly changed just to satisfy people who never cared about/wanted it before.

@silverdrakkar And then having to change it again whenever Microsoft makes a change.

That way lies madness.

I'm with @vkc on this one. By all means say "it doesn't work for me", which may be the case. Or "I need this super-special thing which I can't find a way to do on Linux", which may be true. Just don't say "it doesn't work" as if it doesn't work for anything for anyone.

@vkc
You have presented a challenge to haul a tractor with my bike, and I accept. 😆

@ianrbuck @vkc I am certain that the Southside Battletrain collective could make an entirely people-powered tractor out of an existing tractor and some scrap bikes

@t54r4n1 @ianrbuck oooo that would be exciting!

@vkc @mayintoronto Well put.

I’m determined to get Linux going for the first time.

My old laptop balked a bit at my first attempted Mint installation.

But you your point, it never even occurred to me that it was a “Linux fail” situation as much as me making an error somewhere and just being up for trying it again.

@vkc

I also get annoyed when they complain because Linux won't "do a thing" the way Windows does. Uh, that's the point! Linux is not "Free Windows"...it's Unix.

@c64whiz @vkc

Lucky Gnu's not UNIX!

@vkc All I want is the command key to work, a global top application menu, natural scrolling, and the feature in Finder where you can expand a folder inline to easily move items to a different level. I know, I probably need to write the code!

@davebauerart @vkc

I'm puzzled

I thought I was doing all that on my Debian-13 on a Pi 5

@worik @vkc Cool. What desktop, etc do you use? I haven't installed plain Debian on a desktop in quite a while. Maybe it's time.

@davebauerart @vkc

Gnome on a laptop

LXDE on a Pi, tho that will probably be abandoned by me for something like Matchbox

@vkc
Definitely 100% this. The year of Linux on the desktop? That was maybe 2011 for me, when I finally was able to get rid of Windows for work. Then it's been every year since! ✨

@vkc When the inevitable complaints about not being able to run Adobe This, or MS That come up in these kinds of posts, we've all heard that song before. It's not a relevant point for most of us.

With so much software moving to the browser, Linux is in a position to be equal to or better than Windows/Mac, and if the few major application giants that remain want to lose a generation (or three) of mindshare for their proprietary products, that's on them.

@vkc The more someone is a power user on Windows, the harder it is to rebuild their expertise on a different OS.

My mom needs nothing but Firefox and LibreOffice and Zoom. She changed to Linux without any effort.

@vkc
Funny. I've been using Linux as my main platform for so long that what you'd hear from me say is rather "I make Windows work for me... if I really have to" (and oh boy, is it an ordeal, every time!)

@vkc Same for me. After I (accidentally, long story) installed Linux on my first college laptop, I just didn't get hardware that wouldn't work or would be hard to work with Linux. So no NVIDIA gpus for me (I don't even know if they work now or not, and I don't care).

Of course I don't game, so I know other folks' experiences might be different. But like, it's very possible, especially now!

@acdw @vkc

After many years I had to replace my laptop*. Before I bought a new one I just searched that model on the internet in how it worked with Linux.

It got me a cheaper (returned new) MS laptop. But MS didn't matter as it got a new clean Linux install.

@vkc @ianbetteridge That would be fine if so many Linux people were not constantly exhorting those same Windows/Mac users to switch to Linux ALL THE TIME.

It is not easy. That is the point being made. Many people have no interest in doing that, because they don’t care about the spirit or aspirations behind Linux. They just want to get their shit done.

@davidbcohen it's kind of a generalization you're painting here. If I judged all Windows users based on the 1% or less who make fun of me in the comments, I'd think Windows users were all heartless and cruel.

Every affinity group has its obnoxious types. What gets me is overgeneralization of everyone.

@vkc To be sure, online media is often not the place for nuance or considered debate. YouTube in particular favours a punchy headline that is reflects the core concept of the matching video.

@vkc I know this because after almost 20 years on Ubuntu I have workflows I don't want to change either, but I am using the Mac laptop that I have to for work, and finally built an Arch box to use as a forgejo and home media server.

@LinuxAndYarn @vkc …you're using the distro with the highest demand for care as a server?

@CarbonCarrot @vkc For now, yes. I have a couple Arch experts in my local LUG, it's only for two applications, and it's going to have nightly backups. If I get bitten then I can go to Debian, but I think it will be a worthy project.

@vkc But Linux could absolutely haul a tractor

@vkc Possibly the problem is something more nuanced than some rage-bait nonsense doesn't give you those sweet likes and subscribes?

@vkc Seconding this as hard as I can. Not mastering Linux in 2 weeks when you've had decades invested in learning Windows is just a silly comparison.

The one bit of grace I will give them is that modern lives require us to have a heck of a lot more uptime than computing in the early 2000s. It's hard to learn something new while having to keep up with ~life~. That's why my go-to recommendation for newbies is pick any distro - but try it out in VirtualBox for a while.

@vkc I've only been working with Linux since 1999... There are still a few things I feel I "need" Win or Mac for, but gods, I would never tell someone that it doesn't work for me. Windows doesn't work for me, and I'm forced to boot into it for like 2 things. Mac is less painful, but still not great.

@vkc Absolutely agree with you and this is one of the most sane takes on switching to linux i've seen here lately.

I've used linux for 26+ years now, but i own musical instruments and camera gear that require firmware updates that can only be done with Windows or a Mac. I have to still dual boot but 99.9% of my life is booted into linux, happily.

It's hardware i own, want to use and isn't compatible with linux for those updates. Beyond that everything else i do is in linux.

@vkc I use open source software as a graphic designer and digital cartoonist/illustrator and I can't agree with this more. If you come into Linux and FOSS with expectations of "this should work like X" you're gonna be sorely disappointed.

@the_q But you can’t blame the people who constantly get told “just switch to Linux” whenever they mention another OS on here not to expect it to work like what they’re used to, as implied by the “just.”
@vkc

@davidbcohen and that's my critique, because most of these videos that I see only offer a narrow view on what Linux is, really optimized for rage bait instead of a practical consideration.

@worik @vkc The big problem is that not all programs support the global toolbar. I am irrationally hung up on the smallest of details. LXDE appears to have been superseded by LXQt. Looks like a little more experimentation required.

@vkc this had been my approach as well.
I use Linux since 2012 on the computer, since 2015 on the phone.

@muratk5n @vkc

and if not, you might still play Doom on it.

@vkc I feel the objective of the producer depends on the particular video and can’t always be known. Some will be rage bait, some will reflect an actual experience. That goes back to your valid over-generalisation point.

I have been in IT for 40 years & can find Linux rough, depending on what I am doing. I recognise that’s my lack of experience, not that it doesn’t work. It’s misleading not to point that out - but so is breezily handwaving issues away, which also happens a lot. Nuance!

@CIMB4 @vkc My first music software: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP2P8359EyM

@vkc The more people that use Linux, write software that works on Linux and fund Linux, the more Linux can do.

It’s kind of a self fulfilling prophecy really.

@vkc when I first started using open source software in the late 1990s, I saw a lot of talk about proprietary software being "intuitive".

For the most part, it isn't intuitive. It is what lots of people are used to, so to them, anything different feels unintuitive. But that's not the same thing, and those claims used to drive me up the wall.

@davidbcohen @vkc @ianbetteridge I'm not doing that all the time.

Sometimes I'm actually just using Linux.

@vkc
Before switching to Linux, I thought of everything I had to change in how I use a computer. And there were a lot. Microsoft-based drive, office applications, habits, gaming device, etc.

One by one, I'm replacing them with open source or self-hosted alternatives and working hard to make them work.

Linux not working the same way as Windows is actually a good thing. It made me totally change my views on computers and how they fit into my life.

@vkc that's an excellent way of putting it.

@passthejoe Yeah, but I also don't see the fact that everything's moving into the browser as a good thing.

@vkc

I remember myself sitting in front of a Mac, supposed to do some stuff.

"I don't have a mouse middle button to paste what I just marked (and thus copied?)!"

and several other issues like that.

Or trying to explain to some Windows user how to easily crop and resize a video with ffmpeg.

People totally underestimate the amount of learning and training that went into their muscle memory and to get used to what they think is normal, during their years and decades on Win or Mac.

@worik @vkc The dominant screen reader for Windows is NVDA which is FOSS.

Honestly not a fan of you saying that it's just "the learning curve" when I have seen a few blind people literally struggling to use Linux because it isn't accessible enough, despite otherwise having good knowledge of Linux tools and the shell.

You can also try the experiment yourself - install Orca to then realise that most of your software isn't accessible, or that even your desktop may not be fully working that way.

@vkc
Linux runs perfectly well on Lenovo equipment, Dell equipment, HP equipment, Clevo (most independent companies that sell hardware with Linux already on it are running Clevos)... What doesn't it work on?

@zaivala @vkc

Yes, no!

I'm definitely a Linux evangelist, but companies still make incompatible devices, a friend recently spent hundreds on a single channel USB sound card for his M2 Mac

The sound card was not compliant so will not work on Linux, and I believe it is possible to get Linux running on M2, but it is not for the faint hearted!

@worik @vkc
There is a distro of Linux specifically for M1/M2 Macs, it's not complete yet but it runs, and I believe Ubuntu has even based a variant on it. I'm sorry my brain is not working right now so I can't name it.

@zaivala @vkc

> ...Linux specifically for M1/M2 Macs, it's not complete yet

Yes.

Not for the faint hearted!

@worik @vkc Sound can also be pretty brittle. For a sighted person broken sound may not be a dealbreaker but for a blind person it's like your graphics card had crashed. Also a lot of accessibility-related things for blind people get really expensive, that many just cannot afford it.

@vkc Can't favorite this enough. Just a little care in selecting your hardware goes such a long way in a smooth Linux experience.