Over next 1-2 weeks,I'd appreciate an extended thread re: #FrameworkLaptop, #mntreform, & #FOSS.

TL;DR on my idiosyncratic needs:
* minimize binary firmware blobs¹
* Having 2 disks in RAID-1²
* Runs stock Official #Debian stable³
* Understanding best current replacement keyboard options⁴

Is @frameworkcomputer or @mntmn better for me?

As I **hate** “please boost” requests, I don't so-ask, *but* I'd be glad if ∃ active engagement on this.

#AskFedi #AskFediverse #Framework #OpenSource

the existing mnt reform doesn't have capacity for two nvme drives. one of your disks would have to be an sd card or usb drive. the only firmware blob is the ddr timing blob on the rk3588 core (edit: this is part of the u-boot deploy, not something the OS has to load). runs debian out of the box. not all patches are mainlined, but more info at https://reform.debian.net/

edit: I am a full-time mnt reform user, but I run alpine linux on it.

the only laptop I have that can run multiple nvme drives in a raid is a dell 7740, which is certified for RHEL 8 and Ubuntu 18.04. Mine runs OpenBSD.

CC: @frameworkcomputer@fosstodon.org @mntmn@mastodon.social

¹ As those who have seen my talks know, I use Lenovo T500/X200 laptops. in addition to various hardware problems, I've sadly been finding they aren't fast enough nor have enough RAM for my work.

I now travel with heavy T500 b/c I have work I can't effectively do on any work on an X200.

I know some will say I'm betraying Free Software or whatever by considering the #Framework laptop which has some blob firmwares.

For those who complain, see:
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/full_software_freedom/
https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/open_source_won/

² I realize having 2 disks in a laptop in RAID-1 sounds weird.

I've done it for nearly 20 years & it is amazing! 😯

* when traveling w/ X200, I would yank a drive from the T500 & leave a current backup at home in 10 seconds — rebuild array as soon as I get home.
* To preserve a long term backup 2x/year, yank out a drive & write the date on it & put it on shelf, buy a new disk.
* Linux software RAID-1 code does an amazing job optimizing parallel reads when in sync. I/O noticeably improves.

@bkuhn doesn't this compromise write performance noticeably though?

@bkuhn dunno about the Reform, but only the 16” Framework has the option of more than one full-sized NVMe drive, with the expansion bay. The UEFI software is proprietary. I’ve run Debian Stable just fine on the 13 and 12. @frameworkcomputer @mntmn

Edit for clarity: it was framework's service that was terrible.

MNT is fine

@bkuhn @frameworkcomputer @mntmn I can't comment on your technical needs, but I convinced my partner to buy one, there were problems, and their customer support treated us terribly, when it was still under warranty. Other people have had good luck, but we did not. Your mileage may vary.

@murph @bkuhn @frameworkcomputer which customer support? ours (MNT) or framework?

@murph, thanks for clarifying as your messaged ended up ambiguous because I at-mentioned both @frameworkcomputer and @mntmn, and your pronouns made it confusing since Mastodon default is carry through all at- mentions.

I suspect I'm going to end up using both brands in future. My big worry is the MNT may not be the form factor that will fit all my travel bags which I've carefully chosen to accommodate my hectic & complex travel.

RN that & the keyboard are my concerns with the MNT.

Cc: @mjw

@bkuhn @murph @frameworkcomputer @mjw regarding the form factor, do you mean the classic mnt reform or the new mnt reform next? or both too thick?

@mntmn @murph @frameworkcomputer @mjw I have the classic only rn. I will do some measuring. Thanks for engaging on the thread!

@khm @frameworkcomputer that's not entirely true. you can install a second nvme in the mcpie slot with an m.2 adapter. and with rcore v2 you can get a third pcie controller out of the wifi/bt connector.

@khm @frameworkcomputer also, rk3588 has a second binary blob firmware, the gpu's firmware (mali g610), but you could forego it and use software rendering (the display pipelines themselves don't need blob fw).

Picking up my #FrameworkLaptop / #mntreform / need-a-FOSS-laptop thread

³ I need Debian stable & it has to work. I realize I'll have to install some blobs,, but I'd like to know what proprietary firmware blobs are mandatory, & which are optional. (e.g., I basically never use Bluetooth on my laptop anyway, so I don't really need that blob unless it's the same blob as another rperipheral.)

IIUC, MNT Reform is blob-free? Is there a blob laundry list somewhere for the various Framework models?

@bkuhn

For the MNT/Reform with the rk3588 CPU module, the only blob that is required is the DDR training in the boot firmware:

https://mntre.com/modularity.html

You'll need a moderately patched linux kernel, but I have not found any binary blobs hidden in the patchsets, works with a linux-libre base, even!

I have not used WiFi regularly enough to be confident it still works, but did work at some point...

You watched a talk where I used the external HDMI output for the first time during FOSSY.

@vagrantc The Intel WiFi 6e card that MNT will ship you surely doesn't work without non-free blobs? I'm assuming that to avoid blobs for WiFi you need to bring your own old Atheros card (which you can do because the r3588 module has a mPCIE slot instead of integrated WiFi)?

@lukeshu

Ahhh, that is probably true! I still am using the ath9k that shipped with the original mnt/reform.

@mbacarella No, I think the Linux RAID-1 code is really strong in that it buffers writes to the second disk until idle moments. It's also why a crash does sometimes leave you out of sync upon reboot.

I have never noticed write slowdowns when in sync.

(Admittedly everything is kinda sluggish during sync, but it does a reasonable job, again, to pause sync work if userland needs I/O.)

@bkuhn Are you interested in alternatives like the mnt reform next? #mntreform

https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2024-09-09-introducing-mnt-reform-next.html

@mjw I have the one you kindly gave me as a gift, I haven't had time to try it. Totally reasonable for us to discuss in this thread if it, in fact, can meet my needs better with #mntreform than #Framework

My main problem in comparing models is that I won't have the time to set up both & try them out; I need to figure out ahead of time to be sure it's gonna work, install Debian once, switch and go.

Anyway, updated top post in thread to include MNT Reform as part of the discussion.

Just 8 days after I began this thread about maybe switching to a #Framework laptop, a scandal broke that @frameworkcomputer directly funded toxic individual FOSS developers.
It's not clear to me yet whether an outright boycott is warranted, but what's already obvious is Framework acts like a classic VC-funded tech startup in making foolish unforced errors in policy decision-making b/c they're too busy “moving fast & breaking things” to pay attention to important details like CoC violations…(1/2)

(2/3)…the meta-issues of their handling of the messaging is itself enough to convince me #Framework's not a well-led org.

The easy politically savvy response for @frameworkcomputer would have been (esp. b/c it is probably true): “We didn't vet our grantees as well as we should. We apologize but we also can't logistically or legally claw back these already made grants. We are now rethinking our entire grant program.”

Instead a clumsy snap-response from the CEO of: “We are making a big tent.”🤦…

(3/3)…I've spent my entire career using #IBM laptops knowing this…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
…& then after IBM sold #Lenovo, I was then using laptops made by people w/ strong ties to a human-rights-violating regime.

So, let's have perspective: IBM has still never apologized for *literally* helping the Nazis & #Framework may still be the “least evil” of *traditional* laptop companies.

But, this incident does make me wanna desperately find way to make @mntmn's #MNTReform suit my computing needs.

@bkuhn @mntmn I'm glad that we have quite a few Linux-focused laptop vendors to choose from here in Europe: @slimbook, @tuxedocomputers, Star Labs...

@bkuhn Have you considered slightly newer old librebooted ThinkPads?

For X220/T420/X230/T430/W530/T440p/W541, the only additional blob required compared to T500/X200 is ME firmware (which can be reduced and disabled with the HAP bit, but not completely removed). All software running on the main CPU is free (excluding microcode, which is in the same situation as T500/X200), and a quad-core Ivy Bridge or Haswell ThinkPad would probably outperform a RK3588 MNT Reform. The ones with 4 RAM slots (W530 and W541) can have up to 32GB RAM, the others are limited to 16GB. The larger (14 or 15-inch) ones can have 3 SSDs (one in the main SATA bay, one in the ultrabay, one in the WWAN slot). X230 can take an X220 keyboard (and I think similar mods are possible on T430 and W530).

T480/T480s are also supported and can have up to 64GB RAM (36 or 40GB for T480s because one module is soldered) but they require more blobs for now (FSP) although they have the potential to be more free when that is reverse engineered because arbitrary code execution on the ME and loading unsigned microcode is possible. They can both take a 2280 NVMe SSD (T480 has a 2.5-inch SATA bay too which is mutually exclusive), as well as a 2242 B+M-key NVMe SSD in the WWAN slot.