I was recently looking at Framework for a new x86 laptop, as I believed the company to be reasonably aligned with my values (e.g. pro-repair, pro-FOSS, pro-humanity). But others have warned me that they are now supporting Hyprland, Omarchy, etc. They support these projects led by people who hold alt-right views, in the name of building a “big tent” coalition.

The problem, however, is that building a “big tent” coalition, by design, requires some form of value alignment.

https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986/2

Alpine is a “big tent”, for example, but people who want to harm members of our community aren’t welcome.

This isn’t hard.

Needless to say, I won’t be buying a Framework laptop anytime soon, which makes me sad.

@ariadne I found that out very recently about Omarchy, but I was under the impression that Hyprland had a few weirdos (not the good kind of weirdos. Also, I'm a weirdo, hopefully the good kind), but I didn't know the creator was an alt-right person. What a disappointment...

@ariadne Pretty much every company’s “values” are just advertising for you to buy their products.

Just like all advertisements they will change, or be not followed, as soon as the company believes they can make more money by not following them.

Especially considering they want to IPO, all values held by the company are completely nebulous

@janelith yes, my point is that, at least with me, they have undermined their marketing with these decisions. and now i will order another thinkpad to go along with my ARM one.

@ariadne is your ARM thinkpad also running linux? If so, would you mind sharing which model of thinkpad it is?

@eigen it is the t14s gen 6. it runs postmarketOS since its a weird Windows on ARM laptop.

@ariadne how's the battery life?

@eigen reasonable. not all power management features are supported yet. it can idle for 36 hours (e.g. screen off, closed). i don’t have any complaints, it should be even better once all the power management is there.

@ariadne @janelith not only with you. As I said at an other place I'm pretty mad that they decided to be like that after I helped em sell 50+ Framwork Desktops to a customer of mine.

@ariadne @janelith are you buying it used

@ineemio @janelith the used options at our local recycler are largely intel machines that are slower at the moment, but i do buy other machines from the recycler if they are a good fit for my needs

@ariadne @janelith ok so like. would you buy a thinkpad from lenovo

@ineemio @janelith i really don’t think you are engaging me in good faith so find someone else to troll about e-waste

@ariadne what else is there to buy? I don’t want an Apple laptop (though I have an iMac) because they are unrepairable and Apple (or Cook) gave money to the orange dude. Any repairable, good Linux laptops out there, comparable to an MBP or Framework 13?

@ariadne https://puri.sm/

@mhnevarez purism products are total garbage, they also pollute the fediverse with a poorly moderated instance

@root42 @ariadne https://puri.sm/

@root42 @ariadne I keep seeing Slimbook suggested, they look pretty nice to me and claim to be upgradeable and repairable. I have no first-hand experience with them though.

https://slimbook.com/en/evo

@hyperlinkyourheart @root42 i can tell from the chassis they are just a clevo reseller

@ariadne @hyperlinkyourheart what’s clevo?

@root42 @hyperlinkyourheart laptop ODM. they manufacture a large % of the laptops sold today under various brands. their laptops are okay, but not premium quality. lots of plastic components in the chassis for example, usually.

@ariadne This is news to me. As distressing as this, I appreciate you posting this heads up. I was considering a Framework machine as my next purchase and in light of this information I suppose I will keep looking 😥

@mhnevarez @ariadne out of stock and US only it seems.

@root42 @ariadne yeah it seems they are getting ready to sell the new version for their laptop. you can try the PureOS on a old pc

@root42 maybe tuxedocomputers.com

haven't really checked them. but they're on my list for a closer look when I want to buy hardware next.

there are a number of people talking about buying used as an alternative. i do buy used machines for my lab use from our local recycler (RE-PC) and sometimes from ebay.

but for “production” machines, I either build them myself or buy from a supplier. these machines are tools which sustain my livelihood as an engineer in FOSS. i absolutely need to be able to depend on them, and for laptops that absolutely requires a vendor relationship where i can hold the vendor accountable if there is a problem. these are tools used in a professional setting and they must work reliably.

a refurbished machine which dies on me because they didn’t refurbish the battery, for example, is unacceptable for professional work, and i don’t have any knowledge of the quality of the refurbished device until after i receive it. this is not acceptable in a professional setting, but is fine for hobbyist use…

@ariadne @hyperlinkyourheart ok. Would like to have a good quality laptop. Or else I can stick with a friggin MBA…

@ariadne get a rebadged clevo

@dysfun i am considering dell as an option, yes

@ariadne dell do clevos now?

@dysfun yeah they have for a while. my old XPS machine which gave me almost a decade of reliable service until the battery gave up the ghost was a clevo.

@ariadne huh, well i never. not a bad option then, the one thing you can't argue with is dell's onsite service.

@dysfun i find lenovo and dell to be ~same there.

@ariadne i haven't tried lenovo's onsite service, but their laptops haven't been up to much for a while.

on the other hand the last time i had a dell they were crap and now i'm hearing they do clevos...

@tokudan looks decent. Aluminum case, choice of two preinstalled distros. Only AMD though. I heard their support for Linux is sometimes not optimal.? Additional question would be repairability. I do see that batteries are available, and of course RAM and storage can be replaced.

@ariadne : very experimental but very very very foss (even the electronic is foss) and very very very antifa : MNT by @mntmn

Their MNTreform next looks gorgeous !

@ploum i like @mntmn and like the reform but they are not producing a production x86 laptop for professional users. its cute, but its also not a thinkpad-grade device with thinkpad-grade support.

@ariadne I have a framework laptop, and I'm also disappointed. The big tent argument doesn't apply to the intolerant.

@ariadne I already complained to @dysfun about my last ThinkPad X1 Carbon. Dells I haven't had for 25 years so maybe they're different now.

@ariadne sorry for coming across negatively earlier. this makes a lot of sense, i'm already inconvenienced enough by my used laptop's battery dying so i understand that it would be untolerable for professionnal use...

but what i wanted to say was that despite everything framework might still be the more acceptable company if buying brand new?

@ariadne @ploum we don't have an x86 system, but i wonder what you're missing in terms of support?

@mntmn @ariadne @ploum how long does it take to compile LLVM (Release+Asserts build, one architecture, host or Wasm at your pick) on the Reform?

@whitequark @ariadne @ploum no idea! can try next week if still relevant then

@whitequark @ariadne @ploum i compile mesa quite often if that counts

@ariadne
I was going to agree, because I did have a motherboard replaced by Lenovo after I spilled water over it. But despite service that took them 2-3 weeks (bc they had to order the part) and without the backup machine, that would have been a disaster. So that made me wonder if just being able to get the missing part faster than 2-3 weeks might be better than the service -though of course it would need to be obvious what part is broken. I'm torn. @ploum @mntmn

@ariadne @root42 ah ok, probably not great so. I got a Tuxedo that was a clevo and it started breaking down as soon as it was out of warranty, and it was not particularly easy to repair...

@mntmn @ariadne @ploum it's my primary benchmark for picking a laptop since time immemorial (along with "compile AOSP" but this is less relevant recently for various reasons); mesa is i think quite a bit less heavy

@mntmn (my other criteria, if you're curious, are "chiclet rubber dome keyboard with non-awful Fn row and arrows" and "enough pixel density to shield a small nuclear reactor")

@rlcw @ariadne @ploum we shipped countless replacement parts and did many customer repairs, very rarely did anyone have to pay extra for that. if a company approached us and wanted to deploy a lot of machines, they could also get a stack of spare parts from us from the start and IT people can just swap them in. our stuff isn't harder to fix than a desktop pc

@whitequark ah! not something we offer, all the keyboards are kailh choc based so far.

@mntmn yeah i don't think i could use a mechanical keyboard daily. i could _try_ but the noise physically hurts

@brunomiguel @ariadne apparently the hyprland lead dev and moderation team are actively trying to improve.

That is fine and good if so but cannot be said for dhh.

@whitequark ah i see, you need it to be ultra quiet. i was thinking to make a keyboard based on kailh PG1316S butterfly switches which i use in the trackpad for reform next, not sure if those would still be too loud for you.

@whitequark @mntmn I actually found the silent switches that are actually as close to silent as they get. They just don’t feel nice :-(

@farcaller @mntmn i'm completely fine with dell rubber domes so clearly feeling nice (in this sense) isn't very high on my priority list lmao

@catch56 @brunomiguel yes, my main complaint is about DHH, although vaxry's behavior when interfacing with other projects leaves much to be desired

@ariadne same same same same same, it's been days and I'm no less mad. I had been planning around my next computer being one of theirs.

@farcaller @whitequark silent chocs? which ones did you try, some ambients variant?

@farcaller @whitequark ok the ambients silent twilight are quite impressive actually. that subtitle "Note: clicking noises are the keycaps touching the PCB case screws"

@mntmn mm I'd have to check, I can probably find someone with a sample

every time I've had onsite service for either dell or lenovo it's been the same contractor (and often the same tech) doing the work

this has been true in tennessee, maryland, virginia, and washington state

CC: @dysfun@treehouse.systems

@khm @dysfun yeah it’s a subcontractor

@root42 At this point, there are basically no US corporations in the IT sector left that don't directly support fascism. Intel even is partially owned by the US government, AMD, Nvidia, Google, Microsoft, Meta, you name it: They all openly support Trump.
For my next personal machine, I'm looking for something along the lines of a Mac mini that runs Linux and includes as few US components as possible and can be connected with a single USB-C connection. I currently have no idea what that might be.

@whitequark @mntmn @ariadne @ploum In my experience LLVM won't compile on the 4GB RAM Reform (NXP i.MX8MQ CPU module). There's stuff I've tried to install with guix, and it'll try to recompile if it can't find binaries. I've ordered the 16 GB RK3588 upgrade, which I hope will help.

@mntmn @ploum something like applecare or lenovo’s equivalent to applecare. if my thinkpad is broken, i can get same day repair on lenovo.

@mntmn @ploum this is offset a little by the fact that self-repair is an option, but if some asshole reclines his seat too much on a flight and breaks my screen… i can just get it fixed same day or next on lenovo. even just being able to get parts quickly would be enough though…

@ariadne @mntmn @ploum
Yes; fleet deployments for business/professional use is just a completely different kind of support system. At work (1000+ people) Dell and Lenovo send people around to fix broken laptops and desktops on-site on a regular schedule.

A small regional company can't compete with that - and nobody would expect them to.

@ariadne i'm afraid to ask: has that specific scenario happened to you 😨

@constancies let’s just say i’m not flying air france ever again

@ariadne i'm so sorry, that must have felt awful

@jannem @mntmn @ploum i don’t need the techs, but the ability to quickly get replacement parts is a must for professional users

@ariadne @mntmn @ploum
Those fleet deployments created the infrastructure for the individual support as well ,I believe.

I could imagine a more bespoke service where NMT couriers over a replacement laptop with the same specs overnight - swap the SSD and you're good to go. Or parts, if you prefer. Canon does that for professional photographers.

They'd need to have a local partner in each supported market that keeps some stock so it can be sent domestically.

@ariadne @mhnevarez and refuse to give people refunds on preorders for repeatedly delayed (by years) products, and support the FSF

@ariadne @root42 @hyperlinkyourheart I beg to differ. There has been a whole community around Custom Clevo laptops for over 15 years now. The largest laptop community (NBR) of all time was primarly about Clevo. I am a member of a spinoff community and Clevo chassis are still No.1 when it comes to custom builds. My backup laptop is Clevo based, from 2017, very premium then, and still runs like day 1. It got a new battery last year. The rest is like bought. #Clevo #Laptop

@ariadne @root42 @hyperlinkyourheart On the other hand, Custom Laptops are not for everyone. You have to know how to build your own computers, like in the 90s.

@ariadne @hyperlinkyourheart @root42 there are just so many ODMs on the planet.

Tuxedo Computers and XMG belong to Schenker Technologies (https://www.schenker-tech.de/en/) and use CLEVO (not exclusivly) and other ODMs.

@RandomMusickMayhem @ariadne @hyperlinkyourheart and where (in Germany) can I buy such a thing?

@root42 @ariadne @hyperlinkyourheart XMG/Schenker is the largest reseller in Germany for Clevo.

https://www.schenker-tech.de/xmg/

@RandomMusickMayhem thanks. Do you know how well they work with Linux? Any configurations that one should avoid? I see they are mostly larger machines, smallest one is 14“.

@root42 I haven't bought one in quite some time, the lineup has changed completely since then. Notebookcheck has many reviews on their laptops. I would use this as orientation.
In earlier days, Clevo only produced chassis for gaming and workstations, but they now offer also office laptops. But nothing like Macbooks or convertibles, because they are not suitable for customization.

@RandomMusickMayhem a small 13“ or 14“ Ultrabook would suffice.

@root42 Clevo has a "Mobility" series, which could suit you. But you may have to find out the matching model of the reseller, because Clevo only provides the chassis.

https://www.clevo.com.tw/product/product_list/4

@RandomMusickMayhem @root42 @ariadne @hyperlinkyourheart one should Mention that Tuxedo Computers belongs to Schenker Technologies. So usually if you want the version with Windows go XMG if you want a config that comes with Linux Support go Tuxedo Computers.

I tend to be not happy with there SSD selection so usually order without those also depending on current market prices RAM can be on the expensive side and of course last gen AMD (everything without "AI" in the name) and Intel chips have not been verified for 2x64 GB DDR5 SODIMM kits so Max RAM ist statet as 96GB but all systems I had so far run happily with 2x64 GB DDR5 5600 MHz SODIMMs from Crucial.
Oh by the way Tuxedo is located in Augsburg, Germany.

@TheOneDoc @root42 @ariadne @hyperlinkyourheart
I didn't know they belong to XMG despite having TuxedoOS installed since 2023. Very interesting. (it's stated also on XMG homepage)

btw. my 2 Clevos never had issues running Linux, regardless of which distro i am throwing at them.

@hyperlinkyourheart @root42 @ariadne I've got a Slimbook for the last 3 years and I'm pretty happy with it. It's the better value/price ratio around, I choose it over Framework and Tuxedo at the time. Not as repairable as a Framework, anyway. It has 2 ram slots and a replaceable Nvme storage (two in some models). Also, very slim and light.

@ariadne I think it's not just about getting replacement parts quickly and easily, but the durability of the parts matter too. Having to buy replacement parts should be a last resort, not something you'd do daily. Daily, laptops should last on many situations without breaking. My current laptop is a HP laptop from 2011, and so far I never had to replace a single thing on it. I miss that kind of durability in newer laptops however..

I'm not saying being able to get replacement parts quickly isn't important, but it shouldn't be the kind of thing you do every week either.

@ariadne I entirely agree with you, but Alpine still packages hyprland, afterall.

@justsoup it does, as do many other distributions. that is the decision of the alpine hyprland package maintainer, which is the person accountable for keeping hyprland working in alpine. if they want to deal with the toxic behaviour, as long as it does not come into alpine there isn’t a problem.

xlibre was a different situation, because of the privileged nature of the core graphics stack, contributors across many concerns in alpine would have to interact with them. this is why i security NAKed it, because the security team has no desire to provide security maintenance for multiple X servers, especially if one requires interacting with a hostile environment.

@mntmn @whitequark "still"? my PG1316S are obnoxiously loud

@mntmn @farcaller @whitequark now ambients are silent indeed, silent enough to spoil to the point you stop considering non-ambients