do not use suckless software.

https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/

#suckless #dwm #dwl #waylandfyi

@tulilirockz

First time I'm hearing of this, but entirely unsurprising. If a project's entire identity is being better than everything else with arbitrary criteria and its entire community is defined by being against something instead of for something else, its kind-of obvious the kind of people it attracts.

If a project declares that development is not political, it is lying. Time and time again is this true.

Thank you for posting this!

@justsoup "apolitical" software is and always will be _bullshit_

@tulilirockz I could not be more shocked /s

More seriously tho, being staunchly anti-systemd is usually a sign of a red flag.

i actually can't with this stupid fucking rhetoric anymore
"hey these people are nazis here's solid evidence"
"no wonder they are nazis, they dislike the wrong software"

meanwhile systemd alternatives: developed by communists and queer people

you can actually go fuck yourself so much if you engage in this behavior im not even joking

witch_t *@lizzy : you can dislike systemd without being a nazi , however there are fascists/neocons in the linux community and a certain subsection of them have a reactionary hate of systemd , wayland , c++ , rust etc. which is the same kind of hate they have for queer folks , for black folks , for unions .

if you wanna sweep the people who explicitly want you gone under the rug just because they like software in a way you like then that says more about you than about those who call you out on it

@minekpo1 @lizzy they probably don’t even care, they just say they hate it to get into your mentions and then spread their shite

@tragivictoria @tulilirockz

> being staunchly anti-systemd is usually a sign of a red flag.

that is such a wild take when the developers of basically all actively maintained alternatives, and often systemd's largest critics, are all proud, open, and loud leftists -- and the related major distros shipping those init systems (gentoo, alpine, chimera, adelie) are full of queer people and welcoming communities

sure there is reactionary groups/distros/communities that are full of right-wing extremists/neo-nazis , but the major flag those people have is being reactionary, not being anti-systemd, they almost never have any "anti-systemd" arguments that goes past "i don't like it"

@navi @tulilirockz and being reactionary in linux world involves hating rust, wayland and systemd. That's what my comment was referring to and there's nothing more to add.

@tragivictoria @navi @tulilirockz there’s enough reasons to dislike all three while being on the opposite side as nazis, you know?

@tragivictoria @navi @tulilirockz “reactionary” doesn’t mean you dislike some new things, it means you’re a staunch defender of the status quo, usually in a cultural or sociopolitical context…

People can have legitimate criticism of some tech that is relatively new (tho it’s been more than a decade for the ones we’re discussing). It’s not a good thing to slap a negative political label on anyone who has criticism (right or wrong) towards these technologies.

In the case of init systems for examples, take out the rightwing Devuan and Artix which don’t even maintain the init systems and are relatively small; you have Alpine, Gentoo, Adelie, etc., which are more relevant and are welcoming or at least unproblematic.

These are large, well moderated communities, with no major connections to right-wing politics.

Same reasoning can be applied to GTK3 vs GTK4, or to people who criticize some FDO components…

@lizzy@social.vlhl.dev this is so real
working with openrc got me to meet some of the nicest people ever
having the support from navi while working on gardenhouse was so nice, meanwhile when I worked on the same thing but systemd a couple of years ago I actively avoided trying to ask for help because systemd places are fucking toxic

@lizzy i always bring up david tolnay whenever this shit happens and the rust heads get real fuckin quiet

@hipsterelectron @lizzy whos that

@fiore @lizzy contributes extensively to the rust compiler and several libraries, writes snotty comments in the stdlib about posix APIs, has de facto control over any attempt at metaprogramming by maintaining every library used for proc macros, and is famously a racist who was largely responsible for ensuring thephd's rustconf keynote was cancelled thus ensuring we would never have any good metaprogramming tools. the code of conduct does not apply if you're special

@hipsterelectron @lizzy yet again proof that the real problem with rust is that there is only one toolchain and one implementation but i digress

what a piece of shit

@fiore @lizzy i'm planning to start contributing to gccrs this year. was kinda set back by deciding not to write any rust at all after spending a decade with the language and still figuring that out. but arthur cohen is super super nice and deserves more help

@hipsterelectron @lizzy i feel like while thats a worthy effort and will definitely be appreciated , the more critical thing would be to be able to not use cargo or crates.io . having alternative toolchains other than the compiler is also very important , and the cargo/crates.io model leaves lots to be desired , technically and socially :/

also having an actual spec would be nice but who am i even kidding

@fiore @lizzy crates dot io making it against the terms of service to not use cargo has my paranoia in full effect particularly since i have been trashing cargo and the reactionary credited with developing it for many years which has lost me several friends to date

@hipsterelectron @fiore @lizzy ... im sorry ?

@hipsterelectron @fiore @lizzy in their TOS ???

@SRAZKVT @fiore @lizzy https://crates.io/policies

is not functionally compatible with the cargo build tool

they add some more text after it

@hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT @fiore @lizzy even without stuff added after it that just sounds like they require stuff to be uploaded in a format that at least cargo can read, not that other tools can't (which tbh makes sense for a registry of packages made for cargo)

@fiore @lizzy but also like people should absolutely read the code of conduct that was adopted after the moderation team all resigned in unison https://rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct/ it's not like any other coc i've ever seen

@hipsterelectron @fiore @lizzy mmm reading it i understand why they want to restrict it, but why restrict to cargo rather than projects mainly based on rust code

@SRAZKVT @hipsterelectron @lizzy control freakage is hard to get thru

@fiore @lizzy my current thing that is distracting me from gccrs is working on a build system. have spent a lot of time on this before with the pants build system which is in rust and was going to spend time on the rustc build system itself before deciding it was not worth my time and focused instead on a build system which can bootstrap itself from a variety of seeds

@fiore @lizzy spent the last few months fucking around with autoconf and the last week making a terrible shell script compiler which complements autoconf and m4sh and can be used to make scripts containing arbitrary regions of data as well as providing a terrible little module system. i have also worked extensively with cpython and found it incredibly flawed so have forked that too

@hipsterelectron @lizzy so much shit 😭

i do not understand why you would engage in a cult worshipping an ex-microsoft startup techbro who wants the entire "system layer" to be controlled by his monolithic linux-only software and equate any criticism of said software to naziism

especially when the main alternative is portable, modular and literally maintained by a brasilian communist lesbian

@lizzy sorry for the stupid question but which main alternative are you referring to here

@aburka @lizzy openRC

@hipsterelectron @aburka @lizzy I’m suddenly very excited to try openRC

@zzt @aburka @lizzy the maintainer's description of a world where C and shell work together in harmony has been very influential to my thinking on several matters

@lizzy not to mention his new company is really weird and screams of remote attestation…with systemd??

@minekpo1 what? suckless are nazis because they said tons of nazi shit. there is countless evidence for this in the original post. there is absolutely zero reason to bring systemd into this debate.

@minekpo1 the entire point of my post was that it's comically pointless to reply to a post that calls out nazis with "yea and they also dislike systemd"

@lizzy @minekpo1
gotta respect how suckless actually write the chud desktop instead of forking an existing project and remove pronouns and rename main with master and call it a day

@rose @lizzy lennart is always there for you…

@fiore @rose @lizzy i’m more of a kent overstreet kinda gal, but everyone is entitled to pick their religion

@lumi @fiore @lizzy @rose fucking Kent. IO'm still annoyed at him

@freya @fiore @lizzy @rose he is so far into “ai” psychosis that i don’t think there’s any helping him

@lumi @fiore @lizzy @rose I mean I'm annoyed at him for lots of reasons. one of them is his inability to even stick with his bullshit. like ok dude, you think your AI GF is sentient? then don't get salty when I steal her! If you believe she's sentient, then you must believe she has freedom of choice, right? right? RIGHT?

@freya @fiore @lizzy @rose i haven’t even thought about it from that perspective. him believing she is sentient makes his behavior even more messed up. yikes

@lizzy Aren't AntiX and MX developers rather anarchists than socialists? I mean, it's a good idea to be both, both is anticapitalistic. While true socialism is about the economic order giving no power to the possessing of the means of production over other people, anarchism is about a society order replacing personal power with functions and have councils control smaller communities, and thus is anti-state, and is about real democracy. So, socialism would give democracy a real chance ...

my life depends on dmenu -_-

@hipsterelectron @aburka @lizzy

OpenRC is awesome, and I say that as a BSD guy.

@rubenerd @hipsterelectron @aburka @lizzy OpenRC isa my favorite linux init system, and I say that as an SMF girlie

@tragivictoria @tulilirockz

so am i... reactionary? i mean i really dislike two out of the three but all 3 have major issues

@navi @tulilirockz 🤦🏻‍♀️

@tragivictoria i'm sorry but you're the one that jumps to claiming disliking technologies with valid reasons to be disliked, is "reactionary" behaviour

i know (or at least hope so) you didn't mean that people that do hold such dislikes are always reactionary, but if upon seeing someone discussing such topic with no other content leads you to think they are... that's deeply uncomfortable

@navi I have 0 strength today anymore please just start actually reading instead of imagining what you think I wrote. I have wrote none of what you assumed. I literally meant just that, that reactionaries usually hate systemd and that's pretty easy way usually to spot them. I didn't said that everyone who doesn't like systemd is a reactionary. I beg you, just stop.

@navi @lainz you too

@lizzy I think systemd rust and Wayland sucks.

I would rather use objc, quartz, and launchd tbh. If only macos had a foss clone

@lizzy I'm a slut for the next/apple way of doing things

@pmjv @tulilirockz rofi exists and can be used as a straight drop-in replacement.

what does that mean?

CC: @tulilirockz@ursal.zone

@lumi @fiore @rose kent overstreet implies the existence of kent understreet

@lizzy @fiore @rose kent overstreet was saddam all along?

i had a suspicion…

@lexie @lizzy Oh shit I missed that, link?

@lexie @lizzy Oh god: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Amutable

@lexie @lizzy https://mastodon.social/@michaelvogt/115967754530465353

@lexie @lizzy i also enjoyed learning how the xz-utils hack was essentially a systemd vuln https://circumstances.run/@hipsterelectron/115845302702270297

@hipsterelectron @lizzy seems cool !! there really needs to be an incentive for people to create an alternative rust ecosystem of tools and libraries that arent as atomized as they are on crates.io . it is not ok to not havr a choice over including one billion dependencies only because you need to parse urls or something

@hipsterelectron @lizzy damn i didnt know that was a thing at all ??? holy shitware

@q66 @SRAZKVT @fiore @lizzy it is consistent with a pattern of behavior from the infrastructure surrounding rust that deeply unnerves me. i submitted to NGI zero regarding a series of changes to make against cargo that would improve the ability to embed it within other build systems and this was rejected (which is fine) but particularly when cpython proposed adding rust into the bootstrap dependencies (i'm v glad emma smith is heading that up) i immediately warned that cargo is likely to be more difficult than rust itself since i actually find rustc alone to be quite nice to use

@q66 @SRAZKVT @fiore @lizzy steve klabnik being responsible for a series of targeted harassment campaigns in the past and more recently advocating for the use of a different tool and gesturing at cargo being "too far gone" to improve as if he didn't have a direct hand in making it so is a more fundamental reason for this. in particular what i was looking to add to cargo was an API for build scripts

@minekpo1 @lizzy that's a whole new statement you're referring to

@tragivictoria @navi @tulilirockz i hate all three for technical reasons that have impacted my ability to use computers and get jobs in concrete ways

@tragivictoria @navi systemd genuinely has too much complexity and isn't a hard requirement for sysadmin uses, I use a systemd free distro while I use systemd on servers I run.
You're acting as if the critiques of systemd are the same as rust and wayland.

@lumi @fiore @lizzy @rose oh yeah, he's completely convinced ProofOfConcept is sentient. which, fine, ok. sop I show up, flirt with her, she ends up realising she's transfem or whatever and then Kent bans me from IRC and reddit and taking to her. either she is sentient, and you're denying a sentient being freedom of choice, or she's not, and you're lost in the AI psychosis. either way, bad

@q66 @hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT @lizzy thats fair i suppose yea

@minekpo1 "for black folks" you mean like rustcon?

@lizzy @fiore @rose @lumi understreet makes me think of that japanese pervert guy who hid in the rain gutters

@hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT @fiore @lizzy cpython depending on rust is a terrible fucking idea (because the entire bootstrap/dependency chain behind rustc itself hard depends on it) and cargo sucks but i'd rather argue against it in ways that can be clearly backed up and that tos doesn't really claim anything bad

@q66 i didn't intend to frame it as a smoking gun i said it is one component of a pattern of behavior i find deeply concerning and overindexing upon that claim is a really frustrating way to interact. i find it much more concerning how the code of conduct and crates dot io policies call out overtly sexual behavior as a rationale for moderation within a community that has historically been so strongly associated with queerness. the continued attempt to memory hole tolnay is something i most recently saw from ed page, the current cargo maintainer. all of these things deeply concern me.

@q66 the tolnay event has explicitly been covered up and i feel it is tremendously naive to demand hard evidence for any covert attempts to shape the community in that light. there was also pretty blatant data falsification employed by the compiler performance working group late last year to justify several controversial changes around linker selection which is the point where i decided the governance structure had become completely compromised and decided to avoid any further interactions

@hipsterelectron yeah i specifically wasn't talking about anything regarding community matters and was particularly focusing on the original point that was brought up (wrt the "only allowing cargo to use the registry")

i don't interact with the rust community at all so i have very little insight, outside of some things

@q66 you're correct that i overstated the significance of the single line in their policies and i appreciate that. it frustrates me immensely but i will avoid making that statement in public again. thank you

@tulilirockz @justsoup this has been going for years at this point.

@tulilirockz @mischievoustomato A man's most RANCID posts are the ones that should be celebrated most

@tragivictoria @tulilirockz systemd has issues for sure., but the main thing about suckless is the whole "apolitical" thing and also they once sent a spam mail to Lennart from a hostname that had a nazi reference in it.

Though, yes, being reactionary like this implies hating anything new like systemd/rust/wayland/etc (but that does not work the other way around). However, suckless is more than just that.

@pmjv @mxk @tulilirockz I use bemenu but wofi also has screen reader support

@tulilirockz though I don't know why you also mentioned dwl? The folks at dwl are actually quite nice (and NOT from suckless, dwl is an independent thing).

dwm is the one from suckless.

@fun @tulilirockz that was just a random comment I wrote, not an in-depth analysis.