GNOME's Future On Systemd-less Linux Distros #Linux #YouTube https://youtu.be/zzcoZ6zijIk

@BrodieOnLinux I love how people call me insane when I tell them that I use KDE on Gentoo w/ OpenRC and agetty autologin, followed by dbus-run-session startplasma-wayland if tty1

@elly @BrodieOnLinux i do pretty much the same thing but with niri on chimera. seems reasonable.

@elly If it works for you then absolutely keep doing it

@BrodieOnLinux Sure, although I’m not against systemd (just to be clear). I have plenty of systems running Fedora (like my work laptop or Chromebooks).

I just don’t like it when it tries to do everything for me, /etc/init.d/service action is still ingrained into my muscle memory. My servers and hypervisors run Alpine exactly because of that simplicity.

Take journald for instance. It’s nice, it compresses logs and provides you with convenient tooling (your system crashed? journalctl -b -1 and you look where the problem started). However, I like having plain logfiles in /var/log and if it fills up my filesystem because I forgor to configure logrotate, that’s on me (or as kids these days would say - “skill issue”)

@elly @BrodieOnLinux the fact you use Gentoo is pretty based ngl

@elly @BrodieOnLinux used to do that on Alpine with Sway and then I decided I want to do dev stuff instead of fighting with audio/screen sharing, WM issues, or service management.

@pj @BrodieOnLinux That's why I stopped using sway to be honest. Stuff like having to wrangle with display positions and remembering to kill `mako` when giving a presentation was just annoying.

KDE provides me with a lot of value - not only Plasma (DE) itself, but also software like Kdenlive or Krita. It just works and I can focus on doing what I want to do, hence why I'm donating to KDE.

Screen sharing works just fine (I often do it at work or in coreboot meetings), audio (pipewire) also works just fine (I'm currently listening to music using bluetooth earbuds as we "speak"). That's why I went with glibc instead of musl, I find musl a bit... annoying on the desktop.

@elly @BrodieOnLinux Yeah, right now I’m on Chimera Linux + KDE and it’s been grea… plasmashell has crashed

@elly @pj @BrodieOnLinux While it does take time for me to set everything up with sway I always end up with something I actually want to use and that works just fine for all my intents and purposes.

It could be said I like to do stuff manually :)

@BrodieOnLinux look ma i'm in a video /j

i wanna note that saying "systemd pushes other init systems to be more systemd like" is quite inaccurate

systemd did do some good things, and some awful things. whenever i look at a systemd feature i need to think if openrc benefits from it, and if so, how to do it in a way that makes sense for our model

things like user services, targets, namespaces, activation environment, are things that systemd has and i'm working on for openrc, but it's not quite one to one to systemd

to contrast a lot of things on my todo (improving how supervision and logging works) is inspired by s6, but that doesn't mean i'm making openrc "s6-like" either

--

that's only mentioning the init-wise features of openrc, contrasting with logind where it's a whole thing i'm working on to have an alternative session manager that isn't tied to systemd (and not to openrc either) (and elogind has... inherent issues)

@navi I didn't necessarily mean that it forces them to be more systemd like in a negative sense, I meant it as if they wanted to compete in this space systemd sort of pushed them along. Any init that was in the position that systemd is in would have a similar effect

@BrodieOnLinux fair. there is a lot good from systemd, user services and always-on supervisor being the major ones

it's difficult to discuss that directly though, because systemd does things that are *way* out of scope for openrc, e.g. logind, userdb, networkd

we can't compete with systemd as a whole because systemd as a whole is not a init system, it's a whole userspace. the best i can do is to develop standalone userspace tools where it's missing, like i'm doing for a possible session/login manager

@BrodieOnLinux wait a sec

so this is the description of the ugly hack?
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gdm/-/blob/fbe20af6ba513c6b5880b03ada632e81783ecb9a/daemon/gdm-session.c#L3187-3200

They were starting a separate dbus instance for each greeter session (you could even call it "session bus") and they thought that's a hack

so instead

now they create a temporary user for each greeter session, so that they can use the per-user dbus instance?

In what world that is less of a hack???

@wolf480pl I don't think I said it was an ugly hack?

@BrodieOnLinux
I was referring to
> "and GNOME themselves said it was a bitrotten hack"

Well ok bitrotten doesn't imply ugly.

Still, if I understand correctly (which I'm not sure of, please correct me if I'm wrong):

- gdm was depending on dbus-daemon to launch a temporary session bus for each greeter session

- launching a temporary session bus was considered a hack by GNOME devs

- creating a temporary user for each greeter session is considered a better solution by GNOME devs