I think the only viable high level programming language that isn't slop or lisp at this point is... Lua and quickjs? Is that it?

@drew Oh no. Did Lua get slopped?

@lykso oh yeah lua is still fine

@drew openjdk allegedly bans LLM contributions

@tnorinder true!

@drew 🥲 do you plan to abandon Hare? /j

@nina_kali_nina I don't consider hare a high-level language lol

@drew wren

@eletrotupi not viable tbh

@drew Perl someone said? and Zig? (who are on codeberg, which does not allow AI contributions)

@drj Perl is slop and Zig isn't really high level (and it's still pretty immature)

@drew <small>shell…</small>

@fiore @drew shell's a scripting language, i wouldn't call it a programming language unless you wanna suffer

@navi @fiore @drew quite a lot can be done in bash actually, like an HTTP framework or a C compiler

@navi @fiore @drew I like suffering

@navi @fiore @drew arent scripting languages just programming languages that hurt you

@drew #AdaLang

@drew look there's a reason why my latest project is in java

@SRAZKVT @drew 😭

@c0dec0dec0de @drew my goal is something that anyone interested in it probably already knows the language, or at least can jump to it easily enough, and java fills that niche as pretty much everyone has had to at least touch java at some point. other option was python, but python is slop so i decided against it, and while lua would have worked, i feel lua for writing tools is generally messy at best, and the other option was golang, which, i don't trust google with handling it reasonably enough long term

@SRAZKVT @c0dec0dec0de @drew coffeescript

@hipsterelectron @c0dec0dec0de @drew coffeescript doesn't fit for making a vcs unless you have a runtime with access to the filesystem though, and i wanted things to be as hassle free as possible

also, not everyone knows coffeescript, and its syntax could turn some off (which is why i didn't use haskell or some sml)

@SRAZKVT @c0dec0dec0de @drew i agree there is no good js OS interface and this is why i have decided to do that again from scratch. i do think transpilers are worth consideration more generally particularly for the syntactic familiarity concern you describe

@SRAZKVT @c0dec0dec0de @drew i also however believe surface syntax familiarity to be deeply overrated as a design criterion. syntax is not an interop layer. that's why we invented compilers

@hipsterelectron @c0dec0dec0de @drew syntax is superficial, but especially less experienced developers care about a lot of superficial things, and i don't want to lock them out from exploring my work (especially when its goal is to teach things)

again, i don't need it to be a good language, it won't and shouldn't be run in production anyway, just it just needs to be something everyone can probably understand

@SRAZKVT @c0dec0dec0de @drew i hope to develop a convincing counterexample to your assertion at some point but i have no such example at this time

@hipsterelectron @c0dec0dec0de @drew it is an assessment of how i used to be when i was new to all this, and of how people i knew were when i knew them then

you aren't getting someone who just learnt basics of programming and basic usage of one or two programming languages to go straight away into the deep end of another way to write programs another way, no matter how you turn it, it will always be inherently easier for them if it's something they are already familiar with, or at least close enough to. and from what i saw, that was either python or java, hence my choice of java

@SRAZKVT @c0dec0dec0de @drew java is a deeply underrated ecosystem and the jvm module and class loading apparatus is the best module system of any language ecosystem ever created

@hipsterelectron @SRAZKVT @c0dec0dec0de @drew yes, Java is pretty well designed. Part of why Kotlin is so great is that it builds on top of the JVM. Unfortunately Kotlin went to slop though

@LunaDragofelis @c0dec0dec0de @drew @SRAZKVT luckily we do not have to depend upon anyone else's code to use the good ideas someone else created for us already

@hipsterelectron @c0dec0dec0de @drew @SRAZKVT Yes, and my plan is a programming language that everyone can add ideas to, without needing to fork the core. Instead they can just add plugins and macros.

@drew The Erlang ecosystem seems unslopped. Although only Gleam explicitly forbids any AI contributions.

@ihabunek @drew I'd put Erlang as quite lispy though.
And Elixir is slopped.

@lanodan @ihabunek @drew what happened to elixir?

@kline @ihabunek @drew
A rather permissive/pro-LLM policy: https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/main/CONTRIBUTING.md#using-ai-and-coding-agents

And it's result:
https://slopscan.ava.pet/repo/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub%2Ecom%2Felixir%2Dlang%2Felixir/main

@lanodan @ihabunek @drew shame

@drew@social.freebitcoin.gay though its probably unlikely they haven't, so far i didn't hear anything about golang going to slop.

https://github.com/golang/go/commit/091c48a7f20a411640176d20ce951f3c347882f2

https://github.com/golang/go/commit/b3ff7dc396536e99866329e6a3145da0f8bcf373

https://github.com/golang/go/commit/26d5e160750b34a537cce0f1bfd47f663a110d27

etc etc

CC: @drew@social.freebitcoin.gay

@brettm go is very much slop

@drew prolog?

#swiprolog got slopped but i think #gprolog is safe for now.

@drew @nina_kali_nina hare is wonderful, i could see myself doing backends in it, i saw that yall are planning to support multithreading, no?

@beamanuel @nina_kali_nina we're thinking about it, but there's not a consensus yet

@drew no C?

@drew @brettm One of go's authors (Rob Pike) is against AI ... I remember seeing him get really angry when some claude thing wrote an email to him: https://bsky.app/profile/robpike.io/post/3matwg6w3ic2s

I know that Google advertised Go as being "great for AI stuff" but didn't know go itself was "very much slop"