Hey so the AppImage guy pushes anti-Wayland conspiracy theories and follows a known Nazi piece of shit. Just in case the technical arguments weren’t winning you over, it’s fash tech

https://xcancel.com/probonopd/status/1996670141464035658

@danirabbit Ah yes, poll on twitter surely is a reliable source.

@ada_magicat @tragivictoria @danirabbit if there is one take away from this is, that none of this remotely matters and most people will be happy with whatever they get and that there is no conspiracy happening

But I guess in those circles this isn't a viable conclusion, because it's too boring 🙃

@karolherbst @ada_magicat @danirabbit are you trying to say most people don't care about underlying tech!? /j

In all honesty i agree with you. Wayland is better just because it is actually better at what it does. If there was an alternative that was better than wayland (and was actually viable, i.e. not some sunday project by some rando), then i would personally also support it.

@tragivictoria
> are you trying to say most people don't care about underlying tech!? /j

Yes, but unironically

@ada_magicat @danirabbit

@danirabbit unsurprisingly, he can’t even read a fucking poll. There’s a lot of ways you can interpret that, but “50:50” is a weird stretch that doesn’t even make his point?…

@danirabbit I can’t believe I wrote this before catching that he described “12% vs 3%” as a “vast majority”

@aud @danirabbit Definitely seems like a bad guy, but the 12% vs 3% is specifically the people who have one but prefer the other, so I think 12% of the total 15% would he a big majority, like 80%.

@nieuemma @aud @danirabbit It’s such a ridiculously misleading way to position it, but this happens with stats all the time.

“80% of the people who have one but prefer the other prefer X11.”

@aud @danirabbit I guess:
Like Wayland = 48 + 3
Like X11 = 38 + 12

@danirabbit So. Maybe this is a weird question, but as someone who is not a tech person, but does have Linux installed (I want to use it regularly, but have just run into too many roadblocks) would I even know the difference? I have whatever the default on the distro was.

I imagine that if I developed a preference for some reason, I could just change it, no?

@UrbanEdm Most people will not even know the difference. Except that there are certain features that Wayland enables, like using a HiDPI laptop monitor and a LoDPI desktop monitor or a projector at the same time. And there are certain bugs Wayland fixes, like menus blocking keyboard shortcuts.

For the foreseeable future you can still choose to use X11 if for some reason you feel you need it. Over the next 5ish years it will largely be phased out by the most actively developed desktops

@danirabbit What format do you recommend?

@jenny753

If you want a package that runs on any distro: Flatpak

If you want app sandboxing: Flatpak

If you want to bundle dependencies: Flatpak

You want to target a specific and predictable runtime: Flatpak

You want a package that works well with CI/CD: Flatpak

You want to publish to a popular app store: Flatpak

You want a single file users can download from your website and double click to install: Flatpak

You want to host your own updates server and sign your own package: Flatpak

@danirabbit Interesting. I thought flatpak only worked via flathub. I have reading to do!

@jenny753 nope! OnePassword for example hosts their own remote. We host the AppCenter Flatpak remote for apps made for elementary OS/Pantheon and we build Flatpak bundles in CI. So for feature branches you get a convenient bundle as a side effect of the build that you can install and test.

@jenny753 if you specifically want to target Ubuntu: Snap

@danirabbit won't use appImages but what are the technical arguments

@crmsnbleyd here’s one such post https://github.com/boredsquirrel/dont-use-appimages

Ah it gets better. His literally pinned post is anti codes of conduct, anti diversity, anti “political activism” which we should all understand means human rights

https://xcancel.com/probonopd/status/1985078104964968919#m

So when you’re shipping your app you might not want to choose the format made by the guy who is vehemently against any kind of progress in technology or society

https://xcancel.com/probonopd/status/1991231243116048886#m

@danirabbit

Jeez, what a throwback this dork is. What, is it because Rust is more accessible than C++? Is it because it's made for coders to actually not have to worry about their project eating the whole godsdamned system?

Or are the Rust team just more focused on making a system that works for the most people, which by design involves actually taking feedback from various different sources?

Go on back to machine language, probono, you'll be happier there. You don't have to worry, there aren't any pronouns in opcodes.

@danirabbit wow, I did not have "memory safety is woke" on my bingo card for this year

@theogrin @danirabbit how can you trust anyone who uses a compiler that generates error messages that actually tell you what's wrong? /s

@danirabbit
I have fewer issues with Wayland than with X11 (latter stops responding if I leave keyboard alone for a while, Wayland doesn't) but I don't actually care what I use. The important thing is does it work.
(Debian + KDE)

@Faith Totally. Most people don’t care they just want to be able to use their hidpi laptop plugged into their desktop monitor or like have menus not break keyboard shortcuts and X11 just happens to not do those things. It’s a completely pragmatic thing for normal people

@danirabbit
Eep, I don't want to be thought of as 'normal'! 😁

@karolherbst 10000% this. It’s completely made up conspiracy wacko fake concern troll bullshit. This wouldn’t even be a conversation if they didn’t politicize it this way

@ada_magicat @tragivictoria

@danirabbit I mean, tbf wayland absolutely is being pushed on people

whether or not that's a good thing is a different question

and also even with me thinking that, I'd still never respond to fucking lunduke of all people

@solonovamax only if “pushed” means “the alternative is dead and works much worse now”

@danirabbit I mean, it's definitely being pushed

but like, at some point you have to "push" some things and there is no way around that. it's impossible for software to support literally everything and have absolutely zero defaults for any chosen technology.
if software can instead focus on supporting a smaller (& more modern) subset of things, it can make maintenance & adding new features easier

which is what I mean by "whether or not it's a good thing is a different question"

however imo, wayland is being pushed a little too soon. at least with kde, I'd like to see another 1-2 years before x11 is dropped.
on my desktop I'm still using x11 bc I have an nvidia gpu. I'll move over to wayland once nvidia gpus have been working fine without issues for at least 2-3 years

@solonovamax KDE isn’t dropping it until after Ubuntu 26.04 ships. Which means you’ll be able to use KDE on X11 until at least 2031. Hardly feels too fast when GNOME has already dropped it and Pantheon will drop it next year. There’s been a very slow and steady rollout over the last few years and the rollout will continue for another 5 years for one of the biggest desktops. There’s no way you can describe this as “being pushed”. It’s glacially slow

@danirabbit I do think that eventually, the move to wayland does need to happen
and I'm not against wayland being the default (especially for non-nvidia users)

I would just like projects like kde to wait a little bit longer before actually dropping it

@danirabbit I'm on arch, so I have to use the latest version of things unless I want to do partial upgrades or build from source

also, it can still absolutely be described as "being pushed"
I'm just saying that it being pushed can be a good thing, as getting rid of the old & legacy x11 allows future feature development to be much easier

@ramsey @aud @danirabbit In any case, Wayland is awesome and Nazis are bad. (And math is fun)

@nieuemma @aud @danirabbit Agreed on all counts

@danirabbit how else am I supposed to bundle a whole DE as a VR overlay? I don't want to use appimage, the format is atrocious, but I don't think flatpak will do it and there's not enough people who can package my thing for every distro :(

@danirabbit i hate rust as a technogy and even i find that idea fucking insane

@andrewt @danirabbit It's always the same story time and time again. They say, "No politics. No code of conduct. Just code." because they know they're a shit person and that the moment someone with a soul is involved, they'll get thrown out on their ass. But they think their code is great and want people to focus on that.

They say all the rest is a distraction.

And then a bunch of trans girls and furries (and also some straight cis guys) come up with the best compiled language in decades and only the second one in half a century that's had an actual shot at replacing C (which is absurdly impressive) and they can't stand it. Because it turns out they're not that special. The people they don't like are just as good at writing code as them or better. They've got nothing.

So they flail and they complain and they make up a bunch of BS about reverse discrimination or whatever.

It's a tale as old as time...

@aud @danirabbit Sum up the numbers of those who prefer Wayland (48 % plus 3 %) and those who prefer X11 (38 % + 12 %) you'll get to the 50:50 situation.

For the unhappy users:

48 % + 12 % = 60 % are using Wayland. The 12 % make for 20 % unhappy Wayland users.

38 % + 3 % = 41 % are using X11. the 3 %, which would prefer Wayland, make for 7 % of X11 users.

So you have approx. 50 % of users who want to use Wayland, but 60 % are using it (have to?)

I don't see the stretch.

@aud @danirabbit
12 % + 3 % = 15 % of users unhappy. 80 % of them (a vast majority) are using Wayland, but would prefer X11.

@solonovamax I'm not a native speaker but "being pushed" sounds like someone is forcing you. There's better wording to describe what you mean.

@mattiasb I mean, that is objectively what is happening

what I am saying is that you can both be influenced to go towards one option over another option, as well as for it to be a good thing

as an example: gnome has dropped support for x11, thus forcing people using gnome to move to wayland.
it is also a good thing that x11 is being dropped

@danirabbit @solonovamax Ooh dear, I really love X11 because it can be remoted over a socket. I don't want compositing or fancy effects, and I want my window manager to draw the decorations. I get the feeling I must need moral realignment.

@kbm0 Did your try waypipe?

@mattiasb Not in anger, but I'm sure it will be part of my coping strategy when I finally get forced onto Wayland. At work we run a lot of X applications from ssh sessions running on Cygwin clients, so I'm hoping it will be possible to do something similar for Wayland applications.

@solonovamax @danirabbit If Wayland is being pushed on people, then so was X11, X11 isn't a natural state of things or a status quo.

@solonovamax I don't believe either "pushing" or "forcing" are good words to describe what you're talking about.

@mattiasb why? they objectively describe what is happening

yes, they might have a bad connotation, but that doesn't mean they can only be uses in scenarios where it's a bad thing.

for example, one could say that "society pushes you to follow the law"

@danirabbit geez, I knew about Omarchy and XLibre, but I didn’t know this about AppImage. Good thing I’ve never really been a fan.

I was recently considering moving some of my stuff to Rust. Then I saw anti-woke morons complaining about it and it made me like it even more.

lol Lunduke found this thread. Get fucked bootlicker. Stop asking me to go on your show

@danirabbit lmao

@danirabbit
that’s no reason to stop using appimages

these degenerates routinely use our software to keep themselves platformed and invade our spaces with impunity

we need to stop shying away from doing the same right back at them

@pynk except it’s also trash software. So really there’s nothing redeeming about it

@nieuemma @ramsey @aud @danirabbit Nazis are bad, but wayland is still meh. Weird video setups are still beyond is abilities (or at least mine for getting them to work) plus no network xdm.

@danirabbit i mainly avoided appimage because of the fuse2 requirement and i wish those that push a linux binary of their apps/games didn't only just give me an appimage, because that's either all they offer or the other linux options are broken in different ways

but wow, It Gets Worse Than That!

@kbm0 @mattiasb
Remote (and local) X apps work and will continue to work through Xwayland.

@solonovamax @danirabbit kwin x11 is going EoL in early 2027. How long do you expect volunteers to maintain dead and buggy codebase?

@tragivictoria @danirabbit ah, if it's 2027 then I have no complaints

@tragivictoria @danirabbit and also, even if it were getting dropped today, I have an understanding that they are volunteers and that my desires are different from what's right for the project
yeah, I might be a little dissapointed/sad that it's getting dropped, but like I wouldn't go & complain to them about it or anything bc ik I'm not entitled to their work

@danirabbit okay this is a pretty good argument, and the technical arguments are much better arguments, but i'm still kind of tempted to package my explicitly pro-LGBTQ furry porn viewer written in rust as an AppImage just to piss him off

@AVincentInSpace that’s actually really funny

@danirabbit and for maximum hilarity, the appimage build (and *only* the appimage build) is going to be compiled without X11 support

@danirabbit “You’re a bitch! (Please pay attention to me!)”

@solonovamax
Its not necessarily the bad connotation. GNOME isn't forcing users to use Wayland because there was never any requirement to keep X11. That's like saying I'm forcing a random person to walk just because I won't give them a ride in my car. The objective isn't to make then walk, I just don't want to have them in my car. Similarly, GNOME doesn't want to make people use Wayland, they just don't want to deal with X11. In their codebase.
@mattiasb

@kiri @mattiasb if someone wants to use gnome, they are kind of forced to use wayland

yes, nobody is forcing people to use gnome, but if the intent is to use gnome then you must use wayland

@solonovamax
This is a very broken definition of "forced".
@mattiasb

@danirabbit > features, bugs, design

Well something certainly did not worked out, because appimage is purely garbage.

@solonovamax @danirabbit it is a good thing and if it’s only nazis complaining about it then who fucking cares

@kbm0 it's just that since you said:

> Ooh dear, I really love X11 because it can be
> remoted over a socket.

And that being a thing X has in common with Wayland.

@jannem @kbm0 Yeah and also this ofcourse.

@mattiasb Clearly I won't have trouble continuing to run X applications on client desktops (ie X servers) that are old and don't support Wayland. I guess my fear is that more applications will convert to using Wayland natively and dropping X support. I already have this problem with applications that require d-bus services, or use the seat-bssed permissions model with policykit. These things are a pain if you want to run your applications discretely on Cygwin X servers.

@mattiasb And in the end, I know I'm just an old man who doesn't want change. But I guess lack of change was what attracted me to Linux/Unix a quarter century ago. I was sick of constantly being forced onto the next new thing as a Windows developer. I'd like to see the '90s desktop paradigm preserved in X11, in the same way the VT100 glass teletype has been preserved on the console. That's not that I don't want the new things too, it is the replacement that becomes painful.

@andrewt @danirabbit neither did I but only because I've already been seeing it for something like 5 years already 🫣

@laydros @danirabbit If I liked the language more... 😦

@kbm0 If you run old software or hardware that doesn't support new software or hardware that will be a problem indeed. That's been an issue with technology since the dawn of time (though the time scales might be longer). Not really a "problem" to try to to tackle here. :)

TL;DR: to run a Wayland application you will indeed need a Wayland compositor.

@neal @laydros @danirabbit Yes, can we please avoid the amalgamation? I'm getting tired of people conflating technologies with ideologies, and because fash doesn't like X or Y does not mean X or Y are intrinsically good.

You can do your own thing and use the technologies you like independently from what alt-right morons think. It's fine. Don't give them power over your judgment.

@mattiasb Yeah this is the sort of circular argument you get into with these pro/anti tech discussions. If I were instead saying that I don't want LLMs in all my software you might agree! We all have different ideas about what constitutes progress, and what is just an annoying imposition. I'll stay open minded about Wayland though. Once it becomes part of the furniture, my pain points may ease off. I do hope so.

@kbm0 @mattiasb VT100 is a perfect example. Trying to build terminal emulators is such a pain, codes are ambiguous and a big mess. I'm sure we could now have a better protocol. If we don't I'm afraid the current direction is building terminals in electron. You tell me what you'd prefer...

Again, there must be a compatibility layer with VT100. that doesn't mean we have to be stuck writing it.

@danirabbit oh that’s shit, i love distributing in appimage
i suppose i’ll just write my own format since it’s really difficult to distribute linux software elsehow

@tauon @danirabbit if you do smth like appimage, mayne at least base on the current libfuse version rather than libfuse2

@tauon @danirabbit and require bundling libc too by forbidding loading system libraries

yes libc included

@SRAZKVT @danirabbit oh so that’s why appimage is shit
yes, all that stuff is common sense to me. no wonder fascist software is inherently dogshit
i wish i had a development environment on my laptop so i could try writing something

@tauon @danirabbit you sound surprised ?

@danirabbit @pynk so what’s better?

@tauon @danirabbit @pynk flatpak

@vavency @danirabbit @pynk flatpak is shit i’m sorry 😭

@tauon @danirabbit @pynk Well, back to compiling AUR packages for you then.

@danirabbit

Having a code of conduct and caring about DEI will improve features and design while reducing bugs.

If you don't have a code of conduct, then abusive assholes will chase away talented coders. If you don't pay attention to DEI, then you will only hire mediocre white men, because you won't look for anyone else.

Yeah it's like a backronym but for semantics. "I *want* to use this sharper and more confrontational word so let's try to retrofit the meaning of the word".

@kiri @solonovamax

@solonovamax @kiri @mattiasb from your perspective it might be objectively forcing, for everybody else tho it's objectively progression and migration which describes what's happening here

@faithisleaping @andrewt @danirabbit would be super cool if anyone in rust leadership cared about dtolnay kicking out a Black engineer from the rustconf 2023 keynote. would have been a much better compiled language in a decade with their work in it https://soasis.org/posts/a-mirror-for-rust-a-plan-for-generic-compile-time-introspection-in-rust/

@faithisleaping @andrewt @danirabbit same person who shipped #embed but apparently our community applies the code of conduct selectively and not intersectionally. i don't think we're ready to "replace C" if we can't even replace dtolnay

@solonovamax @danirabbit
I don't think, that the Nvidia-gpu argument is valid anymore. I have an Nvidia gpu, too (sadly), which is having no wayland related issues. At least none i can see...

@Papaexmatrikulatus @danirabbit I'll try wayland out a year-ish from now and it'll probably be fine for me to switch then

@KekunPlazas @danirabbit yes, this is true, and that is my entire point

@faithisleaping @andrewt @danirabbit also pro tip would recommend against talking about replacing people on the basis of superior intelligence or especially bringing up souls in the context of some sort of moral crusade. i thought we all agreed nazis were bad regardless of whether they write good code

@andrewt @faithisleaping @danirabbit

All the ‘meritocracy’ folks run terrified in the face of true competition, they’re all little men hiding behind a curtain hoping we’ll be too impressed by the show to think things through. Distressingly, it works far too often on far too many people. (not a tech guy, but the dynamic is so obvious and pervasive everywhere you see it)

@ada_magicat @tragivictoria @danirabbit just because he is an ass, doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong. It depends on what you mean by "pushed to use". If that includes making wayland session the default, and you have to click somewhere to go X11, then sure. Very low bar though.

I wrote it before somewhere: distros switched to wayland too early, when many many things that "powerusers" use didn't work yet, and that caused a systemd-situation towards wayland.

@hipsterelectron I really don't think that's a fair reading of Faith's post — she's not saying nazis are bad because they can't code, she's saying the fact that queer people might be able to code as well or better than them is a reason why they're spinning out so hard. "with a soul" in this context just means "nice"

@solonovamax @danirabbit Ah, alright, I didn't get it that way, my bad.

@danirabbit its not what happened and how everyone should know that is by the fact that I was a mod during the end of the year of the keynote fiasco and the fact that there was no one I banned as a result of it.

@mavu @ada_magicat @danirabbit Biggest problem with the word "push" is that it have negative connotations, example: "those bad people push foobar on us!".

Yes, many things are "pushed", but usually this word isn't used in those contexts.

Wayland being enabled too soon on many distros is a valid argument tho. That certainly "burned" many people.

Well not like "too soon" says a lot... But IIRC GNOME switched by default by 2016 and Fedora followed soon after. I do think that was too soon.

@tragivictoria @ada_magicat @danirabbit I remember having to disable wayland session because it was just not possible to use a keyboard on the remote side when using remote desktop connection.
I can't even imagine how you arrive at the conclusion that that is not a show stopper and switch to "wayland by default"

Definitely too soon :D

(as far as I know, there is still only 1 (one) working virtual keyboard (for touchscreens) that works with wayland.)

@mavu @ada_magicat @danirabbit > I can't even imagine how you arrive at the conclusion that that is not a show stopper and switch to "wayland by default"

When did it happen? Chances are that it's now fixed.

@tragivictoria @ada_magicat @danirabbit Oh, yes, it's working nowadays. This was at least 2 years ago, or about 200 subjective years.
The only thing that is driving me mad today is the inability of KDE wayland to put applications that produce multiple windows back where i had them last time.
This is apparently still a "contested" point regularly brought up and denied with wayland developers.
No matter, i can cope, but it does make me smh :)

@andrewt i did not whatsoever accuse her of saying that. i was surprised and upset to see claims about programming skill being brought up at all. there were three separate posts i made, the first very specifically critiquing rust leadership and referencing her exact framing of being the best thing in decades. the second post explained how i considered "replacing C" to be a hollow victory if we can't avoid reproducing the same systems of power and hierarchy that made C something worth replacing.

@andrewt i had to leave scala entirely because no one in leadership fucking cared about enforcing the code of conduct. i don't want that to happen again!

i'm working on making std::fs::read_dir() faster right now partially because it lets me delete a really toxic FUD comment from dtolnay. i refuse to have racists in my dependency graph and this means no serde and no syn.

@andrewt i'm not familiar with nazis making the claim that queer people can't code. i have definitely heard that said about Black programmers by nice white people though. and "reverse discrimination" is very deeply intertwined with the history of affirmative action. queer liberation needs to mean liberation for all

@andrewt does it not take a soul to risk repeated harm to my career to reject nazis in the rust programming language? to risk concern trolling and tone policing by people who speak of bad faith misinterpretations and never think they might be capable of the same?

@andrewt nazis need to be gone from rust at all costs. dtolnay maintaining half of the dependencies used by rustc itself gives him immense control over the language. i used to look up to him as an example of caring about the community. i now see him as wielding great power over the community who have largely decided to memory hole the incident. i would be ashamed to claim rust as a paragon of queer liberation—i did so yesterday, while immediately describing how this enduring failing complicates that

@danirabbit

I won’t dox him but if you happen to know his name and search for it (or maybe it was his username I don’t remember), anyway he did a fair amount of “just asking questions” about what Nazi Germany did.

@SRAZKVT @tauon @danirabbit and there is more being excluded than just libc. The full list is at https://github.com/AppImageCommunity/pkg2appimage/blob/19e30b276ffedf4d3b4b56bc6320f463625a74f8/excludelist. Of course all the nss stuff breaks on musl, but not all systems have libX11 either. But i guess wayland is woke, so you can just expect libX11 to be present in that crowd...

@grimmauld @tauon @danirabbit fucking libgmp ? arbitrary precision libraries being reimplemented isn't unheard of, and while they don't go to libgmp for name, it's not completely out of the question either, wtf are they on ?

@SRAZKVT @tauon @danirabbit I have no clue wtf they are on.
The issue i have with this list is maintenance. I only *know* this list because nixpkgs maintains a copy at https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/300f2d4247f566ea719fba8682e3da057f79c943/pkgs/build-support/appimage/default.nix#L117-L253. This is *necessary*, because to run any appimage on nixos, we need to make sure the assumed requirements exist. Of course appimage can't go looking in the nix store, so we need to build a fake root in which all the deps are in their expected FHS paths.

I wanted to deprecate some of the horrendously outdated packages in there (Like SDL1 and ideally SDL2). But it is literally impossible to remove anything from that environment without unknowingly breaking some appimage that relies on that crap. That "portable" format just fails horribly. At least flatpak packages manage their own dependencies and actually do dynamic linking and document required dependencies.

With AppImage, you can't even go check the `rpath` of some ELF binary, because its all just wrapped to hell.

@grimmauld @danirabbit @SRAZKVT maybe embedding the format’s tool inside the executable itself would be a good idea. so you could do something like PK_INSPECT=1 ./myapp.pk -extract myapp.pk myapp.pk_dir

@tauon @danirabbit May i point to https://github.com/nix-community/nix-bundle ? It does bundle libc and stuff too, and it can just bundle any nix package, including an out-of-tree package you write yourself. Its not appimage at least!

@danirabbit @jenny753 Flatpak should not be considered a sandbox. It is all of the other things, but not a sandbox. (AppImage isn't either)

@ity @danirabbit @jenny753 thats fine for me. No need for full containerization if the goal is just to embed dependencies.

@f4grx @danirabbit @jenny753 yes, the problem is when there's docs or entities insisting that containers are sandboxes. I know that's false, but it will mislead less technical users into believing it.

@ity @f4grx @danirabbit @jenny753 what kind of super strict definition of sandbox do you have that containers don't match it?

@valpackett @f4grx @danirabbit @jenny753 I expect a sandbox to be designed with security in mind, not with security as an afterthought.

@danirabbit wow, not only that, he even went as far as to intentionally mischaracterize someone by making personal attacks - https://xcancel.com/LundukeJournal/status/1997151033823289733#m

So looking at the content Lunduke highlighted, specifically "Free Palestine", I would like to express my support in that statement, and I would also like to add Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen.

Controversial take: Zionism and Antisemitism are bad.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2025/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_engagements_during_the_Gaza_war

@TheEvilSkeleton @danirabbit Jesus, highlighting “transfem girl” to make some kind of point. But no, don’t call them bigots because that hurts their feelings.

Honestly agree we should put politics aside (for the most part). Meaning I won’t stop using a product because the maintainer is a neoliberal (🤢). But this goes beyond disagreeing with politics. We cannot accept people in our community that do not recognize basic human rights of our fellow people. 1/3

@TheEvilSkeleton @danirabbit Bullying valued members of our community is cruel. Even from a pure utilitarian perspective we cannot condone these fascists. Unironically, FOSS would be nowhere without our LGBTIQ+ friends, seriously look at the contributions. To be clear, this goes beyond utilitarianism, this is about basic human decency. If you cannot reach the absolute lowest standard of showing some basic decency to all, I do not want anything to do with you 2/3

@TheEvilSkeleton @danirabbit I could probably write a book about my distaste for these folks. But one mask-off moment I often see is that I am an immigrant myself (🇳🇱->🇸🇪). If I talk with people who claim migrants are ruining Sweden, and I point out I’m one, it’s always ”no not you”. Yes, I’m highly educated but so are my former Iranian collegues who _do_ get shit for their migrant status. Take one guess about the difference between me and an Iranian collegue?

@TheEvilSkeleton @danirabbit On a very different note, as Izzy points out their products generally suck anyway.

Which is an interesting observation honestly. Have gotten more and more convinced over time that people underestimate the importance of culture (or soft values in general, including the arts) in a product. A common phenomenom within the male engineering crowd (which I consider myself part of).

@TheEvilSkeleton Yeah he made a gross poll picking on Izzy too. He’s a truly awful and disgusting person

@TheEvilSkeleton @danirabbit Lunduke in general has 3 strategies:
lie
ad personam
lie on the ad personam

@sstendahl @TheEvilSkeleton @danirabbit I think there's also some confounding variables. People who are bad at what they do seem to be more prone to want to throw minorities out of their spaces, presumably being afraid of competent competition.

There was a study made on gaming spaces, where those who were aggressive/denigrating towards women who joined voice chat were also consistently worse at the game (on average)

@squid64 @TheEvilSkeleton @danirabbit

He got lost somewhere I guess

@danirabbit hotel: Trivago

@jenny753

@danirabbit Yes, he's completely batshit. That's why I said he probably wouldn't help me start using appimage today like he did ten years ago, before my coming out.

But ten years ago, there weren't working alternatives and he and the world were slightly saner.

@ska @neal @laydros @danirabbit it's becoming a bit problematic if said fash gobshite is the primary developer and promoter of specific tool or technology.

@mawhrin @neal @laydros @danirabbit Yes, obviously. That's a completely different situation.

@FinalGirl 100% I wonder if his wife knows how much he obsesses over me

@danirabbit TBF, his wife would obsess over you too if she knew you. 💜

@brainofdane 😘